Wednesday, June 15, 2022 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

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seaborgium
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Re: Wednesday, June 15, 2022 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by seaborgium »

twelvefootboy wrote: Wed Jun 15, 2022 11:57 pm She seemed to rule decisively on the pronunciation of Saarinen which you promptly rebounded. I didn't hear that Gregory butchered it up that much and it seemed like a quick rejection. Did that go down in real time that way?
For what it's worth, I don't think he messed up Saarinen (or, at least, messed it up enough to garner a neg), but he did turn Eero into Eeno. All the more reason not to give first names unless you have to.
twelvefootboy wrote: Wed Jun 15, 2022 11:57 pm I also thought Mayim gave a very fast negative for Ramona Quimby. I still don't know why that is wrong, and why Gregory wasn't required to give a last name (since it isn't Quimby).
"This Beverly Cleary girl has a mom & dad; Helen Hunt Jackson's 1884 character of the same name does not"

I guess "of the same name" means that everything you give in your response must apply to both characters to be correct. Since Helen Hunt Jackson's character didn't have the last name Quimby, it couldn't be taken.
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Re: Wednesday, June 15, 2022 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by MarkBarrett »

Reading on Reddit the game was worse than appears with multiple stops and player challenges on the Ramona Quimby and Eeno misses. It took a long time to tape and that stinks all around for host, staff and players to mar what should be a fun experience.
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Re: Wednesday, June 15, 2022 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by opusthepenguin »

Category 13 wrote: Thu Jun 16, 2022 12:18 am While the two ladies stood silent, Gregory appeared to repeatedly attempt to buzz in on DJ 21, the clue about zombies. I wonder what happened there?
Looks to me like his hand is just shaking rapidly back and forth. Judging by his movements throughout the game, he was pretty nervous or amped up.
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Re: Wednesday, June 15, 2022 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by opusthepenguin »

seaborgium wrote: Thu Jun 16, 2022 1:24 am
twelvefootboy wrote: Wed Jun 15, 2022 11:57 pm I also thought Mayim gave a very fast negative for Ramona Quimby. I still don't know why that is wrong, and why Gregory wasn't required to give a last name (since it isn't Quimby).
"This Beverly Cleary girl has a mom & dad; Helen Hunt Jackson's 1884 character of the same name does not"

I guess "of the same name" means that everything you give in your response must apply to both characters to be correct. Since Helen Hunt Jackson's character didn't have the last name Quimby, it couldn't be taken.
That's the conclusion I came to, but the ruling surprised me at the time and I'm still not happy with it. When they ask for "this Beverly Cleary girl" and can't (or at least don't) accept "Ramona Quimby" when she's the correct response, that's either a bad ruling or a poorly worded clue or both.
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Re: Wednesday, June 15, 2022 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by jeff6286 »

I agree the Ramona clue is a mess. The clue doesn’t say “this name shared by the two characters”, The first clause could stand alone and clearly asked for “this Beverly Cleary girl”. Adding the fact that Jackson’s character had the same [first] name does not change the fact that the first clause only asks for Cleary’s character.

There are just so many better ways to write that, either start with Jackson and then throw in a helpful clue that she shares her first name with Cleary’s character, or even more straightforwardly just say “two literary characters share this first name, one by Jackson who is an orphan and one by Cleary who is not.”
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Re: Wednesday, June 15, 2022 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by davey »

opusthepenguin wrote: Thu Jun 16, 2022 8:02 am
seaborgium wrote: Thu Jun 16, 2022 1:24 am
twelvefootboy wrote: Wed Jun 15, 2022 11:57 pm I also thought Mayim gave a very fast negative for Ramona Quimby. I still don't know why that is wrong, and why Gregory wasn't required to give a last name (since it isn't Quimby).
"This Beverly Cleary girl has a mom & dad; Helen Hunt Jackson's 1884 character of the same name does not"

I guess "of the same name" means that everything you give in your response must apply to both characters to be correct. Since Helen Hunt Jackson's character didn't have the last name Quimby, it couldn't be taken.
That's the conclusion I came to, but the ruling surprised me at the time and I'm still not happy with it. When they ask for "this Beverly Cleary girl" and can't (or at least don't) accept "Ramona Quimby" when she's the correct response, that's either a bad ruling or a poorly worded clue or both.
Agreed, but it also leads to the general advice, adapted from seaborgium's post above-
All the more reason not to give last names [of fictional characters] unless you have to.
That was my first thought, Why did she give the last name? But if as I understand it they stopped tape and spent time to think about it, with the this placed as it is, and still ruled against it, that's even more distressing.
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Re: Wednesday, June 15, 2022 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by Golf »

econgator wrote: Wed Jun 15, 2022 10:32 pm I suspect that this FJ is probably a bit easier for those of us of a certain age. :) One of the facts in my head about BDZ is that she was the first female athlete to appear on a Wheaties box (although neither the first woman (aviator Elinor Smith) nor the first woman to appear on the front (Mary Lou Retton)).
And of course there's the first athlete on the front of the Wheaties box, Bob Richards. Before that they were depicted on the back of the box. Fictional character Jack Armstrong was the first to appear on the box. The first living athlete on the box? That's way too esoteric. :lol:
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Re: Wednesday, June 15, 2022 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by Bamaman »

Golf wrote: Thu Jun 16, 2022 10:00 am
econgator wrote: Wed Jun 15, 2022 10:32 pm I suspect that this FJ is probably a bit easier for those of us of a certain age. :) One of the facts in my head about BDZ is that she was the first female athlete to appear on a Wheaties box (although neither the first woman (aviator Elinor Smith) nor the first woman to appear on the front (Mary Lou Retton)).
And of course there's the first athlete on the front of the Wheaties box, Bob Richards. Before that they were depicted on the back of the box. Fictional character Jack Armstrong was the first to appear on the box. The first living athlete on the box? That's way too esoteric. :lol:
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Re: Wednesday, June 15, 2022 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by BigDaddyMatty »

Coryat: $37,200
49 R/2 W
DD: 3/3
FJ: :mrgreen:
LT: Dallas Mavericks, arm (DD), palm, lichen, Visigoths (DD), Shaolin temple, whipping cream, wolfram, zombies

Athletes over several generations who all represented the same brand? Gotta be the Wheaties box.

I matched Peggy's neg of "walk softly..." Not sure how that happens with an aphorism I've heard dozens if not hundreds of times. Speaking of Peggy (welcome!), I was impressed with several of her gets. Even the miss of Juba for Khartoum showed solid knowledge.

Did we really need a Jim/James Brady explanation?

Knowing the Spanish "brazo" and the Portuguese "braço" was a big help on DD1.

I wonder how many of us would be unfamiliar with the Shaolin temple if not for the Wu-Tang Clan.
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Re: Wednesday, June 15, 2022 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by davey »

BigDaddyMatty wrote: Thu Jun 16, 2022 11:57 am
Did we really need a Jim/James Brady explanation?

Yeah, that was weird: Does she really think no one called him Jim, in his "public life"?
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Re: Wednesday, June 15, 2022 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by dcbird »

My problem with FJ was that the clue was looking for the brand -- not the product. "Wheaties" is the name of the cereal made by the brand, General Mills. A brand is something that covers a lot of products made by the same company -- so the use of "brand" would steer contestants in the direction of sporting goods companies that use star athletes to endorse their product and promote the whole brand. But appearing on the Wheaties box is used to sell more Wheaties, not any other cereals produced under the General Mills brand. Am I quibbling, or is this a legit complaint?
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Re: Wednesday, June 15, 2022 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by Ironhorse »

opusthepenguin wrote: Thu Jun 16, 2022 7:59 am
Category 13 wrote: Thu Jun 16, 2022 12:18 am While the two ladies stood silent, Gregory appeared to repeatedly attempt to buzz in on DJ 21, the clue about zombies. I wonder what happened there?
Looks to me like his hand is just shaking rapidly back and forth. Judging by his movements throughout the game, he was pretty nervous or amped up.
One of the contestants mentioned on Reddit that the producers told him to stop moving so much.
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Re: Wednesday, June 15, 2022 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by Robert K S »

dcbird wrote: Thu Jun 16, 2022 12:15 pm My problem with FJ was that the clue was looking for the brand -- not the product. "Wheaties" is the name of the cereal made by the brand, General Mills. A brand is something that covers a lot of products made by the same company -- so the use of "brand" would steer contestants in the direction of sporting goods companies that use star athletes to endorse their product and promote the whole brand. But appearing on the Wheaties box is used to sell more Wheaties, not any other cereals produced under the General Mills brand. Am I quibbling, or is this a legit complaint?
I don't think it's a legit complaint from an IP perspective. "Wheaties" is undeniably what would be referred to as a brand--in this case, a brand of whole wheat flakes. The word "brand" derives from the ranching sense. In the old days, it was any mark or symbol put on cattle to identify the cattle with its owner. Today, a brand, or mark (the two are synonymous), is any device used to associate a good or service with its origin. The fact that "General Mills" is also used a brand, in addition to being the name of a company, does not make "Wheaties" any less of a brand (or mark).
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Re: Wednesday, June 15, 2022 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by DBear »

Ironhorse wrote: Thu Jun 16, 2022 12:48 pm
opusthepenguin wrote: Thu Jun 16, 2022 7:59 am
Category 13 wrote: Thu Jun 16, 2022 12:18 am While the two ladies stood silent, Gregory appeared to repeatedly attempt to buzz in on DJ 21, the clue about zombies. I wonder what happened there?
Looks to me like his hand is just shaking rapidly back and forth. Judging by his movements throughout the game, he was pretty nervous or amped up.
One of the contestants mentioned on Reddit that the producers told him to stop moving so much.
from what I saw, he needed to be told.
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Re: Wednesday, June 15, 2022 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by davey »

dcbird wrote: Thu Jun 16, 2022 12:15 pm My problem with FJ was that the clue was looking for the brand -- not the product. "Wheaties" is the name of the cereal made by the brand, General Mills. A brand is something that covers a lot of products made by the same company -- so the use of "brand" would steer contestants in the direction of sporting goods companies that use star athletes to endorse their product and promote the whole brand. But appearing on the Wheaties box is used to sell more Wheaties, not any other cereals produced under the General Mills brand. Am I quibbling, or is this a legit complaint?
When we've this discussion before, consensus (or at least insistence) seemed to be for the opposite - Wheaties is a brand and General Mills is only a company...Me, I think they're both brands.
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=3473&hilit=brand+general+mills
with some follow-up here
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=3567&p=215479&hilit ... ls#p215479
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Re: Wednesday, June 15, 2022 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by dcbird »

I think the writers need to fine-tune their questions better, to avoid these ambiguities. I know these controversies go way back but I do have a sense that we've had more of them lately. (On this board, I suspect someone's been keeping count, so please correct me if I'm wrong...)
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Re: Wednesday, June 15, 2022 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by Robert K S »

davey wrote: Thu Jun 16, 2022 1:57 pm Wheaties is a brand and General Mills is only a company...Me, I think they're both brands.
If it's a mark put on the product to associate in the minds of consumers the product with its origin (maker), then it's a brand.
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Re: Wednesday, June 15, 2022 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by opusthepenguin »

davey wrote: Thu Jun 16, 2022 1:57 pm
dcbird wrote: Thu Jun 16, 2022 12:15 pm My problem with FJ was that the clue was looking for the brand -- not the product. "Wheaties" is the name of the cereal made by the brand, General Mills. A brand is something that covers a lot of products made by the same company -- so the use of "brand" would steer contestants in the direction of sporting goods companies that use star athletes to endorse their product and promote the whole brand. But appearing on the Wheaties box is used to sell more Wheaties, not any other cereals produced under the General Mills brand. Am I quibbling, or is this a legit complaint?
When we've this discussion before, consensus (or at least insistence) seemed to be for the opposite - Wheaties is a brand and General Mills is only a company...Me, I think they're both brands.
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=3473&hilit=brand+general+mills
with some follow-up here
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=3567&p=215479&hilit ... ls#p215479
Thanks for that! I knew we'd had this discussion before and almost went off in search of it but decided to read to the end of the thread first. Glad I did. I didn't recall that the last discussion actually involved Wheaties and General Mills, so I would have been stuck reviewing posts with the word "brand" in them.

Note the first sentence of the Wikipedia article on Wheaties: "Wheaties is an American brand of breakfast cereal that is made by General Mills."

And the first sentence of the article on General Mills: "General Mills, Inc., is an American multinational manufacturer and marketer of branded consumer foods sold through retail stores." The article then has a whole section on the different General Mills brands.

So if anything's the brand, it would seem Wheaties is. However, I agree that both can be considered brands since the term is relatively elastic. General Mills is a brand that gets stamped on lots of foods. (Remember, the analogy is to branding cattle. It just means they put their mark on the product.) Those foods in turn constitute their own brands under the General Mills brand. There's no distinction in terms here unlike the auto industry which distinguishes between make (e.g. Toyota) and model (e.g. Corolla). It's brands all the way down.
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Re: Wednesday, June 15, 2022 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by Robert K S »

opusthepenguin wrote: Thu Jun 16, 2022 3:53 pm both can be considered brands since the term is relatively elastic. General Mills is a brand that gets stamped on lots of foods. (Remember, the analogy is to branding cattle. It just means they put their mark on the product.) Those foods in turn constitute their own brands under the General Mills brand. There's no distinction in terms here unlike the auto industry which distinguishes between make (e.g. Toyota) and model (e.g. Corolla).
This is the correct take, although I wonder whether the term could really be defined as "elastic", since it is well defined and aligns perfectly with terms like "trademark" that have broad but nonetheless precise legal definitions.

I wonder what I was so busy with six years ago that I wasn't all over that 2016 thread. I would have piped in on both the brand issue and the "bass guitar" BMS. Which, for the record, was absolutely fine. A bass isn't a different instrument from a non-bass (treble?) guitar. It's just tuned lower. It usually, but not always, has thicker strings. It sometimes, but not always, has fewer strings. (There are plenty of six-string basses out there.) It is rarely, but certainly not never, played in a chorded manner. It is less often, but, again, far from never, partially or totally acoustic. It is often, but not always, heavier. (McCartney was famous for playing a bass that was lighter than the average electric guitar.) So, I struggle to think of a way you could define "bass guitar" generally, in a way that would apply to every bass, but that would also rule out every non-bass guitar.
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Re: Wednesday, June 15, 2022 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by mikebdoss »

DBear wrote: Thu Jun 16, 2022 1:12 pm
Ironhorse wrote: Thu Jun 16, 2022 12:48 pm One of the contestants mentioned on Reddit that the producers told him to stop moving so much.
from what I saw, he needed to be told.
I get that it looks weird on TV, but I'd be mad if I had a nervous tick, but they told me to stop it. Then I'd be self-conscious about the tick, which would certainly affect my game play.

His movements weren't harmful, though I'm sure they could have been distracting. Either way, I'm sure it made it tougher on him.
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