Pluto TV to launch 24/7 J! channel

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colonial
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Pluto TV to launch 24/7 J! channel

Post by colonial »

https://www.vulture.com/2022/07/pluto-t ... -24-7.html

J! and WOF channels will launch Aug. 1, but details on what will be featured on the channels remain up in the air.
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Re: Pluto TV to launch 24/7 J! channel

Post by Robert K S »

Mark posted this over on the J! in the Media thread.

I don't have any inside knowledge, but something makes me think we shouldn't expect to see very many shows older than the ones that have already been on other streaming services, due to the same licensing rights issues with Audio Daily Doubles that we've heard about over the years.
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Re: Pluto TV to launch 24/7 J! channel

Post by jlgarfield »

Whoa, something I wished for when The Barker TPiR channel launched..... finally came true. OMG. I am so giddy.
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Re: Pluto TV to launch 24/7 J! channel

Post by opusthepenguin »

Robert K S wrote: Mon Jul 11, 2022 10:42 am Mark posted this over on the J! in the Media thread.

I don't have any inside knowledge, but something makes me think we shouldn't expect to see very many shows older than the ones that have already been on other streaming services, due to the same licensing rights issues with Audio Daily Doubles that we've heard about over the years.
Dang it, I bet you're right. I want them to go through the archive and start airing missing episodes. Or just start at episode 1 and crank them out in order. (At 48 per day they could run the whole cycle twice a year.) Sub in song covers where necessary for the audio clues and in extremis show a description of a video clue rather than the video itself and add in a disclaimer that lightly shames the owner of the copyright. How is a Jeopardy!-length excerpt not considered fair use anyway? Can we lobby Congress to change that?
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Re: Pluto TV to launch 24/7 J! channel

Post by Robert K S »

opusthepenguin wrote: Mon Jul 11, 2022 1:40 pm How is a Jeopardy!-length excerpt not considered fair use anyway?
It probably would be under the circumstances, but Sony just doesn't want to deal with the letters, I imagine. Can't blame them, except inasmuch as their predecessors should have had the foresight to secure rerun and streaming rights.
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Re: Pluto TV to launch 24/7 J! channel

Post by opusthepenguin »

Robert K S wrote: Mon Jul 11, 2022 2:48 pm
opusthepenguin wrote: Mon Jul 11, 2022 1:40 pm How is a Jeopardy!-length excerpt not considered fair use anyway?
It probably would be under the circumstances, but Sony just doesn't want to deal with the letters, I imagine. Can't blame them, except inasmuch as their predecessors should have had the foresight to secure rerun and streaming rights.
Well I support Sony taking the risk and settling this issue in court in a decisive way. :D
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Re: Pluto TV to launch 24/7 J! channel

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opusthepenguin wrote: Mon Jul 11, 2022 3:11 pm Well I support Sony taking the risk and settling this issue in court in a decisive way. :D
Write them a letter asking them to make me their IP attorney and I'll make it happen. :D
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Re: Pluto TV to launch 24/7 J! channel

Post by triviawayne »

Robert K S wrote: Mon Jul 11, 2022 2:48 pm
opusthepenguin wrote: Mon Jul 11, 2022 1:40 pm How is a Jeopardy!-length excerpt not considered fair use anyway?
It probably would be under the circumstances, but Sony just doesn't want to deal with the letters, I imagine. Can't blame them, except inasmuch as their predecessors should have had the foresight to secure rerun and streaming rights.
If someone in 1984 had the foresight to secure streaming rights, and hell, for that matter rerun rights on a game show, they wouldn't have been working for Griffin/Sony/Whoever, they would've just picked those winning lottery numbers instead.
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Re: Pluto TV to launch 24/7 J! channel

Post by RandyG »

opusthepenguin wrote: Mon Jul 11, 2022 1:40 pm . . .
Sub in song covers where necessary for the audio clues and in extremis show a description of a video clue rather than the video itself and add in a disclaimer that lightly shames the owner of the copyright. How is a Jeopardy!-length excerpt not considered fair use anyway? Can we lobby Congress to change that?
Copyright issues regarding music/songs have been very strictly enforced over the years by the owners and subsequently by the courts. Covers unquestionably have to pay royalties and even just quoting snippets of lyrics -- I've looked into this -- is not considered fair use in most cases, especially for a commercial venture, and a high-profile one at that. Shaming the copyright owners could spectacularly backfire.

Since this particular situation is not a principal and necessary part of the Jeopardy! business -- unlike radio and streaming networks and record companies -- the production company and Sony most likely just don't want to go there.

Sure, Congress can change the law. Not gonna happen.
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Re: Pluto TV to launch 24/7 J! channel

Post by Robert K S »

The single most important consideration in fair use is whether and to what extent the complained-of use will have an affect on the market for the original copyrighted work. I think a court would hold that in almost all of Jeopardy!'s uses of copyrighted works, the market for the original work would be little or none diminished, and that the use is fair. But it's far from clear under existing case law that this fourth and most important factor would be determinative for all of Jeopardy!'s uses. The context of incorporation of a small excerpt as part of a trivia clue imbues the use with a transformative teaching/scholarship/criticism/commentary character. But remember, in many cases, we're not just talking about short portions of audio clips played as part of clues. We're talking about the music also being used as a subsequent outro to commercial. It's a lot more difficult to make a fair use argument predicated on the teaching/scholarship/criticism/commentary character of trivia clue inclusion when the clip is played for the pure entertainment value of rockin' out as we throw to an ad. The other thing I contemplated is that Sony is perhaps as often as not the rightsholder plaintiff in these sorts of actions, and perhaps wants to avoid creating precedent that would stymie its enforcement of its own rights in its vast recording libraries.
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Re: Pluto TV to launch 24/7 J! channel

Post by opusthepenguin »

RandyG wrote: Mon Jul 11, 2022 3:55 pmShaming the copyright owners could spectacularly backfire.
How so? The plan is to not use the work and put a disclaimer at the end saying "The clue involving a clip from 'Enter Sandman' could not be played because the copyright owner refused to license it for a price we considered reasonable." I chose this song because I know Metallica are vigorous defenders of their copyright. Would they have any grounds to sue based on the use of that title and the non-libelous implication that they're over-protective money-grubbing weenies? Should I delete this post before the Metallica-bot crawls JBoard?
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Re: Pluto TV to launch 24/7 J! channel

Post by econgator »

opusthepenguin wrote: Mon Jul 11, 2022 5:46 pm
RandyG wrote: Mon Jul 11, 2022 3:55 pmShaming the copyright owners could spectacularly backfire.
How so? The plan is to not use the work and put a disclaimer at the end saying "The clue involving a clip from 'Enter Sandman' could not be played because the copyright owner refused to license it for a price we considered reasonable."
So, basically what you're saying it, "We're Jeopardy!. How dare you turn us down!"?
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Re: Pluto TV to launch 24/7 J! channel

Post by opusthepenguin »

Robert K S wrote: Mon Jul 11, 2022 4:40 pm The single most important consideration in fair use is whether and to what extent the complained-of use will have an affect on the market for the original copyrighted work. I think a court would hold that in almost all of Jeopardy!'s uses of copyrighted works, the market for the original work would be little or none diminished, and that the use is fair. But it's far from clear under existing case law that this fourth and most important factor would be determinative for all of Jeopardy!'s uses. The context of incorporation of a small excerpt as part of a trivia clue imbues the use with a transformative teaching/scholarship/criticism/commentary character. But remember, in many cases, we're not just talking about short portions of audio clips played as part of clues. We're talking about the music also being used as a subsequent outro to commercial. It's a lot more difficult to make a fair use argument predicated on the teaching/scholarship/criticism/commentary character of trivia clue inclusion when the clip is played for the pure entertainment value of rockin' out as we throw to an ad. The other thing I contemplated is that Sony is perhaps as often as not the rightsholder plaintiff in these sorts of actions, and perhaps wants to avoid creating precedent that would stymie its enforcement of its own rights in its vast recording libraries.
I have to believe that in almost all cases where a Jeopardy! clue has any effect on the market for a work, it is a positive effect. Viewers reminded of a song's existence may seek out and purchase the mp3 or add it to their Spotify list.

The outro problem could be addressed by dubbing over that portion with generic music. That's not a big problem as long as the clues are played properly.

The idea that Sony doesn't want to shoot itself in the foot is intriguing and depressingly plausible.

NOTE: The gnomes almost got me again. On proofreading my first paragraph I saw that someone--obviously not me--had typed "affect" in both places where I meant "effect".
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Re: Pluto TV to launch 24/7 J! channel

Post by opusthepenguin »

econgator wrote: Mon Jul 11, 2022 5:55 pm
opusthepenguin wrote: Mon Jul 11, 2022 5:46 pm
RandyG wrote: Mon Jul 11, 2022 3:55 pmShaming the copyright owners could spectacularly backfire.
How so? The plan is to not use the work and put a disclaimer at the end saying "The clue involving a clip from 'Enter Sandman' could not be played because the copyright owner refused to license it for a price we considered reasonable."
So, basically what you're saying it, "We're Jeopardy!. How dare you turn us down!"?
No, I'm saying "You want HOW much for airing a 10-second clip of your lousy song that will probably boost your sales?!?!?? Are you nuts?!?!!"
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Re: Pluto TV to launch 24/7 J! channel

Post by davopardy »

Robert K S wrote: Mon Jul 11, 2022 10:42 am Mark posted this over on the J! in the Media thread.

I don't have any inside knowledge, but something makes me think we shouldn't expect to see very many shows older than the ones that have already been on other streaming services, due to the same licensing rights issues with Audio Daily Doubles that we've heard about over the years.
They could just in theory skip the episodes in question that has the music rights issues related to the audio daily doubles, it shouldn't impact Sony's ability to allow Pluto to air 80s and 90s Jeopardy episodes. The issue at hand is going to be figuring out exactly which episodes that has the audio daily doubles and figuring out whether to just maybe edit it out, air it in tact or as I said above, skip to the next episode that didn't have an audio daily double altogether.
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Re: Pluto TV to launch 24/7 J! channel

Post by Volante »

opusthepenguin wrote: Mon Jul 11, 2022 6:02 pm
econgator wrote: Mon Jul 11, 2022 5:55 pm
opusthepenguin wrote: Mon Jul 11, 2022 5:46 pm
RandyG wrote: Mon Jul 11, 2022 3:55 pmShaming the copyright owners could spectacularly backfire.
How so? The plan is to not use the work and put a disclaimer at the end saying "The clue involving a clip from 'Enter Sandman' could not be played because the copyright owner refused to license it for a price we considered reasonable."
So, basically what you're saying it, "We're Jeopardy!. How dare you turn us down!"?
No, I'm saying "You want HOW much for airing a 10-second clip of your lousy song that will probably boost your sales?!?!?? Are you nuts?!?!!"
The argument I've heard is by lowering the royalty rate, you devalue the rights, which :roll:
It's better to not get the full fraction of a cent you want than get a smaller fraction of a cent apparently.

Also this: https://www.vox.com/2014/11/3/7145231/s ... years-wkrp
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Re: Pluto TV to launch 24/7 J! channel

Post by Bamaman »

I remember when Crackle aired the games before the BOTD Tournament they only had two audio DDs. One was a classical piece (public domain) and the other was the Wheel of Fortune theme, which Sony owns.
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Re: Pluto TV to launch 24/7 J! channel

Post by booboo9921 »

Assuming an unarchived episode or two does show up on pluto, will those episodes be entered into the archive?
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Re: Pluto TV to launch 24/7 J! channel

Post by MarkBarrett »

booboo9921 wrote: Mon Jul 11, 2022 8:53 pm Assuming an unarchived episode or two does show up on pluto, will those episodes be entered into the archive?
Can you point to an episode on YT, DM, IA, Drive etc. not in the archive? Even if Pluto airs an un-archived ep. at 3 in the morning I would like to think someone would snare it.
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Re: Pluto TV to launch 24/7 J! channel

Post by opusthepenguin »

Bamaman wrote: Mon Jul 11, 2022 6:55 pm I remember when Crackle aired the games before the BOTD Tournament they only had two audio DDs. One was a classical piece (public domain) and the other was the Wheel of Fortune theme, which Sony owns.
To be nitpicky, most classical music is in the public domain in the sense that anyone is allowed to perform and record the piece without paying royalties to the composer. But the performance itself is copyrighted. I ran into this when I ran a Classical Music TD here a good 10 years or more ago. One of the questions involved identifying your choice of several different snippets of classical music. I put it up as a video on YouTube with each excerpt numbered so you could say which one you were identifying. It was practically the definition of fair use--small bits from much larger pieces that couldn't possibly have their market value diminished by what I was doing. The bots flagged it anyway and took down my video. I wasted my time going through the appeal process, arguing fair use. Not sure why. Didn't even get a response. I think I tried uploading the video to Dailymotion next and got the same treatment. Eventually I was able to run it on Vimeo.

The difference is that you can always find some recording of a piece that's available on the cheap. If the Berlin Philharmonic and the Chicago Symphony don't want to play ball, the Polish National Radio Symphony Orchestra (and no, I did not make them up) will license their recording to you for very reasonable rates. Or you can make your own recording with a studio orchestra, but that's probably a lot more bother.
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