Tuesday, July 17, 2012 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

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Re: Tuesday, July 17, 2012 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by CyrusChan » Wed Jul 18, 2012 1:23 am

Austin Powers wrote:J round was fine. Some weird moments: really, do we need to be told the DiCaprio film was "J - something" when we know our answer is one word and begins with an e? And very cruel to have the Eric the Red/Leif Ericson distinction, the show usually doesn't require knowledge so fine grained. And I was surprised to see "hawk" warranting a prompt on peregrine falcon.

I liked most of the categories. Rotten Tomatoes was a nice twist on the movie category. The money was a new way to ask about currency. Smart words was just there, I didn't think any of them were especially difficult or, more importantly, interesting. The eventual winner had a couple of strange negs - I suspect he buzzed in before he realized Yeager would'nt work.

I liked how the champ said shinkansen - appropriate and not too showy.

In DJ I thought the TSs on Chaucer and love conquers all were very mysterious. Ok and the middle guy saying priest for a guy who is in battle was weird too, he tried to kill himself on DDs. Didn't think the category was as hard as it played. Country music was a nice change of pace category. Arthur played a little easy; in their defense, Arthur Wellesley probably WAS the most obscure name there, since the other answers gave you the Arthur, including Arthur Sullivan for $1200, which is just a crazy clue at that level if you ask me.

Having not been to Columbia, I wasn't brave enough to pull the trigger on "core curriculum," which strikes me as a totally unextraodinary term. I liked the rest of that category, though, very nice clues. I also liked the Constitution signers category - Pinckney was straight know it or don't, but the two above could be intuited. I also liked the hue/hew homophone, and await people complaining about incite/insight.

FJ was very straight forward, I knew Abigail was a wife of David, two first ladies were named Abigail, and the abba + something getting to "father" in a Hebrew phrase all made sense. Not surprised it was a triple get since I could see someone settling on Abigail Adams quickly.

The champ was right, $20,000 is a lot of money, and is often enough to win many games of Jeopardy. Just not games when the guy next to you has $13,000 or so going into FJ. I can't complain, though, as this adds an element of tension to each show.

Peregrine Falcon is the most commonly known and popular kind of falcon and the questions asked for this type of falcon and I don't think a response of "Hawk Falcon" answers or qualifies as correct in any sense. And of the Erik the Red and Leif Ericson clue, the latter is the son,hence you have the "son" part in it so you have to get it right, just like you can't mix up Henry Vii and Henry Viii and think that they are the same. He had a 1/2 and 1/2 chance sort-of-speak but choose the wrong one or didn't think it through, good thing he had a good performance today though.

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Re: Tuesday, July 17, 2012 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by jpahk » Wed Jul 18, 2012 2:33 am

i won't dispute the claim that it's a good idea to know your chaucer. but today's category felt weird—none of these questions were actually about the canterbury tales! for $400, they just wanted to you name chaucer. $800, this "conquers all" in a latin phrase for love. $1200, droning instrument = bagpipe. $1600, okay, you had to guess a tale-teller who might have fought in the crusades, so ... knight. that one seems guessable even if you didn't know anything about the canterbury tales. and $2000, name a holy city (other than canterbury, heh) for christian pilgrimages... jerusalem.

so basically, you didn't need to know anything about the content of the canterbury tales, other than maybe have an idea about some of the professions for the $1600 DD.

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OF OFS AND MEN

Post by Sage on the Hudson » Wed Jul 18, 2012 3:59 am

jeff6286 wrote:A wife of King David & 2 of our early First Ladies shared this name derived from Hebrew for "my father's joy".
Bamaman wrote:I got FJ because Martha just didn't seem to fit the rest of the answer. I didn't know who the other one was after the first Mrs. Adams and had to look it up, it was Mrs. fillmore. I wouldn't classify Fillmore as an "early" president, but I guess that's a loose definition.
Deeply, deeply misleading FJ clue. 1850, the year Abigail Fillmore became first lady, doesn't qualify as "early" by any estimate.

dhkendall wrote:I thought that "Bathsheba" isn't that popular of a woman's name any more and kept thinking.
What is it with Americans and superfluous "ofs?"


And the Peregrine falcon is only the world's fastest bird in a dive, not level flight, which ought to be the standard for that distinction.

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Re: Tuesday, July 17, 2012 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by stevo4212 » Wed Jul 18, 2012 4:38 am

I originally thought Martha for FJ. It turns out that Martha Jefferson, as in the wife of Thomas Jefferson, died before he took office, so the only presidential wives, pre-Lincoln to share a first name, are Abigail Adams and Abigail Fillmore. Fascinating.

Has jeopardy really asked us to identify non-spousal first ladies before? That would be interesting.

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Re: Tuesday, July 17, 2012 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by jpahk » Wed Jul 18, 2012 5:00 am

Austin Powers wrote:I also liked the hue/hew homophone, and await people complaining about incite/insight.
i got it, but yeah, those aren't homophones. IN-site and in-SITE are not the same pronunciation.

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Re: Tuesday, July 17, 2012 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by phi » Wed Jul 18, 2012 6:00 am

Roadgeek Adam wrote: The Blythe Paradox?
Or Blythe blunder.
jpahk wrote: i'll tell you what i didn't like about blythe's wager: it's not that she didn't make the MSB, but actually that she wagered too much.
Yup. I'd guess that she just computed the difference between #2 and #3 and wagered that, without really thinking her rationality and betting assumptions through to their logical conclusion.

I'm pretty new to the board so forgive me if this has come up before, but is there any literature on jeopardy wagering? I doubt it'd be truly useful in a game-time situation, but I'm kind of curious if there are any papers (on the arXiv or otherwise) that deal with this topic. As today's game showed, such a strategy would necessarily have to incorporate assumptions about the competitors' rationality. Somewhat more subtly, it'd also have to make assumptions about their utility functions. For example, if Dan put a premium on making as much money as possible (something that probably couldn't be known by Blythe -- though perhaps she recognized his suit as being exceptionally expensive?), then his rational wager is everything. But one can imagine that, even under simplifying assumptions, it's still a fascinating analysis.

Blythe's decision should probably also have been based on how likely she thought she was to get the correct answer. I imagine normally you can use the subject to help you out, but something like "First names" is so vague as to be almost useless for wagering purposes. Anybody know offhand what the average percentage of FJs are triple stumpers?

And while I'm rambling about FJ strategy, are there any studies on optimal DD betting? This actually seems like a more interesting question to me. I feel like people (IBM, Roger Craig?) who conducted the appropriate analysis concluded that aggressive betting is optimal... Anybody have ideas on this? I'd imagine such an analysis would have to take into account how early or late in the game it is, as well as one's confidence in one's own abilities and the abilities of one's competitor, etc. Tricky stuff indeed.

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Re: Tuesday, July 17, 2012 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by miggydub » Wed Jul 18, 2012 7:07 am

For FJ, it seemed very natural to combine Dad and jOLLY (father's joy) and come up with DOLLY. :D

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Re: Tuesday, July 17, 2012 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by John Boy » Wed Jul 18, 2012 8:11 am

xxaaaxx wrote:
*champ* Oh, she got it right? Game ov...WTF?!

I don't know what else to say, that was an inexplicable wager. What a way to end an otherwise good game.
Not totally inexplicable. A bet of $5,200 and a correct FJ give her a nice, round $20,000 total. Maybe she's fond of nice, round numbers. I hope that nice round total is a comfort to her as she holds her $2,000 check for finishing second. That was sad, just plain sad.

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Re: Tuesday, July 17, 2012 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by Roadgeek Adam » Wed Jul 18, 2012 9:55 am

phi wrote:
Roadgeek Adam wrote: The Blythe Paradox?
Or Blythe blunder.
I think paradox fits in better with the other names, got that appeal over blunder. Besides, blunder is negative. :)
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Re: OF OFS AND MEN

Post by seaborgium » Wed Jul 18, 2012 9:56 am

Sage on the Hudson wrote:
dhkendall wrote:I thought that "Bathsheba" isn't that popular of a woman's name any more and kept thinking.
What is it with Americans and superfluous "ofs?"
That's at least the second time you've quoted a Canadian and asked that question.
jpahk wrote:i won't dispute the claim that it's a good idea to know your chaucer. but today's category felt weird—none of these questions were actually about the canterbury tales! for $400, they just wanted to you name chaucer. $800, this "conquers all" in a latin phrase for love. $1200, droning instrument = bagpipe. $1600, okay, you had to guess a tale-teller who might have fought in the crusades, so ... knight. that one seems guessable even if you didn't know anything about the canterbury tales. and $2000, name a holy city (other than canterbury, heh) for christian pilgrimages... jerusalem.

so basically, you didn't need to know anything about the content of the canterbury tales, other than maybe have an idea about some of the professions for the $1600 DD.
Reminds me of an opera category that Larissa Kelly ran. The only specifically operatic knowledge you needed to run that was Egyptian = Aïda (worth $2,000!); the rest was solvable with literary knowledge. http://www.j-archive.com/showgame.php?game_id=2486 (DJ, third column)

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Re: Tuesday, July 17, 2012 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by Spaceman Spiff » Wed Jul 18, 2012 10:16 am

CyrusChan wrote:
Bamaman wrote:Nothing wrong with third place's bet. If second makes the MSB and is wrong, he is till ahead of her if she bets zero. So since she has to be right to win, she might as well go all in and maximize her payday. Second place made a bad bet but it worked out for him since the leader underbet.

Add Canterbury Tales to the short list study guide when you get the call.

Exactly, it's always out, remember to skim through Canterbury Tales and know Chauncer!
What, didn't Bamaman study them in 12th Grade English? :P (OK, I know it's a long time ago, but I managed to bluster 4/5 in the category).

I do remember our 12th Grade teacher doing something that was rather clever to avoid parental complaints. She passed out fairly unabridged full versions of the Tales, and said we had to read five of them. She then listed on one side of the board a list of "clean" tales, if our morals were easily offended, and on the other side she put down a list of "naughty" ones. Needless to say, we pretty much all read the naughty ones. :mrgreen:
stevo4212 wrote:Has jeopardy really asked us to identify non-spousal first ladies before? That would be interesting.
I would think non-spousal one aren't technically "First Ladies," though it looks like there's a bit of debate on that among historians; e.g., Martha Jefferson Randolph (aka Patsy; daughter of TJ) is often listed as the "First Lady" of that era, as is the niece and daughter-in-law of Andy Jackson.

(Really obtuse movie trivia -- Martha Jefferson (the spouse) and Martha Jefferson Randolph (Patsy, the daughter) have been played in different movies by mother and daughter Blythe Danner and Gwyneth Paltrow.)
Last edited by Spaceman Spiff on Wed Jul 18, 2012 10:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Tuesday, July 17, 2012 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by PatMorrison » Wed Jul 18, 2012 10:19 am

jpahk wrote:i won't dispute the claim that it's a good idea to know your chaucer. but today's category felt weird—none of these questions were actually about the canterbury tales! for $400, they just wanted to you name chaucer. $800, this "conquers all" in a latin phrase for love. $1200, droning instrument = bagpipe. $1600, okay, you had to guess a tale-teller who might have fought in the crusades, so ... knight. that one seems guessable even if you didn't know anything about the canterbury tales. and $2000, name a holy city (other than canterbury, heh) for christian pilgrimages... jerusalem.

so basically, you didn't need to know anything about the content of the canterbury tales, other than maybe have an idea about some of the professions for the $1600 DD.
I had an English course once where we had to memorize the entire first stanza of the General Prologue in Middle English, so I was looking forward to the category. Safe to say my anticipation was met with a good deal of disappointment.

As far as Blythe's wager, I find it hard to believe there is anything more haunting psychologically than leading going into FJ, getting a correct response, then going home.

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Re: Tuesday, July 17, 2012 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by legendneverdies » Wed Jul 18, 2012 10:40 am

seaborgium wrote: Reminds me of an opera category that Larissa Kelly ran. The only specifically operatic knowledge you needed to run that was Egyptian = Aïda (worth $2,000!); the rest was solvable with literary knowledge. http://www.j-archive.com/showgame.php?game_id=2486 (DJ, third column)
10/1/97, Hittite Hodgepodge, a contestant remarked during the interview something to the effect of that you didn't have to really know about Hittites to get the clues in that category.

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Re: Tuesday, July 17, 2012 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by Austin Powers » Wed Jul 18, 2012 10:41 am

jpahk is right in that it is not necessarily a bad bet, even if it was off by a little bit towards the ideal amount. Any bet is relative to its surroundings, especially a leader bet, since second place would be quite rational to bet much smaller - assuming first bets larger. We saw - has it been over a week? - where the leader Stephanie (I think) bet $100 to top Ron, who certainly could have bet more. That was odd, but many of us praised it as her correctly assessing the situation and making a bet that gave her a chance at winning if she got the question right or wrong.

This is a game of poker, and part of determining how you bet is in large part your own confidence in the category and your determination as to what second will do. They add up to a result where you factor in your odds of being correct, and what that would do, versus your odds of being wrong, and how that would play out. Sometimes, a seemingly wishy-washy bet might make the most sense.

However, I don't think Blythe was playing poker. Betting to the nice, round $20,000 suggests she was betting to a number she was confident in mathematically. She was able to do the math and she was sure of that. And it looked like a nice number - a winning number.

Unfortunately that has nothing to do with your own confidence in the category or how your opponents are positioned.

Of course, this is all speculation pulled out of my butt, based on armchair psychology. But any time I see a contestant bet to a round number, or bet a round number, it suggests to me that the first and second and third thing on his or her mind is getting the math right. Again and again, these round number bets backfire. It's the one constant in this wacky process.

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Re: Tuesday, July 17, 2012 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by OntarioQuizzer » Wed Jul 18, 2012 11:05 am

I like Blythe's wager a lot more if it's a challenger going up against a champion that has demonstrated some semblance of knowledge of wagering strategy.

Against a challenger who hasn't demonstrated a thing? I don't like it nearly as much.

In my post at Jeanie's blog, I called it "Blythe's Gambit".
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Re: Tuesday, July 17, 2012 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by OntarioQuizzer » Wed Jul 18, 2012 11:07 am

PatMorrison wrote:As far as Blythe's wager, I find it hard to believe there is anything more haunting psychologically than leading going into FJ, getting a correct response, then going home.
This.
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Re: Tuesday, July 17, 2012 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by OrangeSAM » Wed Jul 18, 2012 11:31 am

Austin Powers wrote: And I was surprised to see "hawk" warranting a prompt on peregrine falcon.
I wasn't. The clue specified a bird which could travel at a certain speed and not all hawks can do that.
seaborgium wrote:
Sage on the Hudson wrote:
dhkendall wrote:I thought that "Bathsheba" isn't that popular of a woman's name any more and kept thinking.
What is it with Americans and superfluous "ofs?"
That's at least the second time you've quoted a Canadian and asked that question.
So what is it with North Americans and superfluous "ofs", eh?

I didn't get FJ! (Martha, Martha, Martha!). As for the wagering... I think one has to assume that second place maximizes his return (bets it all), regardless of the wagering calculator. Also, I believe one has to wager with confidence in getting FJ! correct. Betting from fear of missing FJ! is strike one.
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Re: Tuesday, July 17, 2012 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by Austin Powers » Wed Jul 18, 2012 11:49 am

OrangeSAM wrote:
Austin Powers wrote: And I was surprised to see "hawk" warranting a prompt on peregrine falcon.
I wasn't. The clue specified a bird which could travel at a certain speed and not all hawks can do that.
It specified a "species of falcon." I'm not sure why just "hawk" would even be close to promptable (would just "bird"?). My guess is that the card had the old name, "duck hawk," on it as an alternate, and Alex took that as being worth a prompt.

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Re: Tuesday, July 17, 2012 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by John Boy » Wed Jul 18, 2012 11:51 am

OntarioQuizzer wrote:
PatMorrison wrote:As far as Blythe's wager, I find it hard to believe there is anything more haunting psychologically than leading going into FJ, getting a correct response, then going home.
This.
I've long thought this was the second-most-egregious, unforgivable wagering blunder of all, after only the Clavin. And yes, it must sting.

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Re: Tuesday, July 17, 2012 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by OrangeSAM » Wed Jul 18, 2012 1:11 pm

Austin Powers wrote:
OrangeSAM wrote:
Austin Powers wrote: And I was surprised to see "hawk" warranting a prompt on peregrine falcon.
I wasn't. The clue specified a bird which could travel at a certain speed and not all hawks can do that.
It specified a "species of falcon." I'm not sure why just "hawk" would even be close to promptable (would just "bird"?). My guess is that the card had the old name, "duck hawk," on it as an alternate, and Alex took that as being worth a prompt.
Sorry, I didn't quite get your meaning on first reading. I agree that "hawk" was not acceptable, but given "duck hawk" (which is news to me, thanks), a BMS does seem appropriate. (FWIW, I had "peregrine" without the prompt.)
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