Thursday, July 19, 2012 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

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Re: Thursday, July 19, 2012 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by Roadgeek Adam » Fri Jul 20, 2012 1:16 pm

Now I've used and seen at points Anthony "Mad" Wayne. Would that be acceptable, since Mad is in the middle not at the front?

(That was how I responded when the clue showed up.)
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Re: Thursday, July 19, 2012 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by John Boy » Fri Jul 20, 2012 1:21 pm

BoK wrote:
John Boy wrote:Very interesting FJ. I never for an instant considered any of the historical figures (Cleopatra etc.) because, after all, the category name told us it was way earlier than that.

For me this was the absolute most instaget in some time, and I was frankly surprised Julie missed it. Lucy has been a clue subject on the show before, I think because her discsoverers named her after the Beatles song, "Lucy in the Sky With Diamonds."
"Very old young lady" made it an instaget for me, but I'm sure some people haven't heard of Lucy. I'm not sure why you say "Anthropology" implies something prehistorical.
Anthropology make indeed cover more recent events, but it predisposed me to think much older. If they had meant someone within recorded history, I'm thinking they would have named the category "Ancient History" or somesuch.

Maybe that's a mistake on my part, but in this case it was a happy one. Probably would have gotten to Lucy anyway, but this way I got there quicker.

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Re: Thursday, July 19, 2012 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by bpmod » Fri Jul 20, 2012 1:29 pm

Wimple wrote:For the river Don I immediately shouted Scotland, then saw the length. Oops.
Almost the same here. Except I said Canada. Anyone else from Ontario make that mistake? If I had noticed the length in the clue, I never would have embarrassed myself with such a ridiculous response. But very happy to pick up Lach trash on Fraser.

Sorry to see you go, Julie. I rooted for you right to the end.

Brian
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Re: Thursday, July 19, 2012 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by jkbrat » Fri Jul 20, 2012 3:15 pm

Austin Powers wrote: I don't think you can hold stories against contestants. The returning champ lady probably had a better story than "I prepared for the show" (though such preparation can't be said of every player), but Alex just picks something and runs with it.
That is so true.

Shelly is a really funny guy who had everyone laughing in the Green Room and over lunch; I'm still hoping he might find this board and say hello. It seems like there was more to that GPS story than was shown on the air, but it was quite awhile ago now so I can't be sure of that.

And that "prepared for her appearance here by using her MIT degree?????" really surprised me. That was most assuredly NOT one of my submitted anecdotes, but they do warn you that no matter what's written on the card, Alex Trebek can talk about whatever he wants to. :lol:

In addition to submitting anecdotes prior to your appearance, you are also asked to fill out a 1-2 page questionnaire (going from memory here - I can't find my form at the moment [We just moved; I can't find anything at the moment!]). There are various questions along the lines of "When did you decide you wanted to be a contestant on Jeopardy!," "Was there a teacher who particularly inspired you?," etc. One of the questions, again IIRC, was something like "What is your educational background and how did it help prepare you for Jeopardy!" So I just answered that question as best I could, little knowing it was going to come up on the show! I mean my educational background certainly did help prepare me, but I think everyone's does in some way. But the way it was asked made it seem like I had taken some type of Roger Craigesque approach (not that there's anything wrong with that :lol: !), when I really hadn't (other than, like I said, application of general problem-solving principles).
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Re: Thursday, July 19, 2012 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by jkbrat » Fri Jul 20, 2012 3:18 pm

econgator wrote:
Austin Powers wrote:In Doobies, I had no idea what to make of the top clue - okay yeah that song did go to Number One - but nothing in the lyric was really helpful.
Yeah, I thought that was a very tough one for the top row. Even singing to the title takes a little while.
I think I can say from experience that it takes longer than the time allotted for ringing in, even if you try to sing really, really fast. :roll:
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Re: Thursday, July 19, 2012 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by jpahk » Fri Jul 20, 2012 3:56 pm

the only reason i knew the don DD is because of mikhail sholokhov, the soviet literature nobelist whose masterwork is and quiet flows the don. the first time i heard that title i thought it was "dawn", which made no sense, but then, sometimes literature is like that.

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Re: Thursday, July 19, 2012 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by Austin Powers » Fri Jul 20, 2012 4:05 pm

jpahk wrote:the only reason i knew the don DD is because of mikhail sholokhov, the soviet literature nobelist whose masterwork is and quiet flows the don. the first time i heard that title i thought it was "dawn", which made no sense, but then, sometimes literature is like that.
Who knows? It would be really weird if the work Sholokov was plagiarizing used "dawn," and he was just very confused.

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Re: Thursday, July 19, 2012 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by bpmod » Fri Jul 20, 2012 4:43 pm

jkbrat wrote:
econgator wrote:
Austin Powers wrote:In Doobies, I had no idea what to make of the top clue - okay yeah that song did go to Number One - but nothing in the lyric was really helpful.
Yeah, I thought that was a very tough one for the top row. Even singing to the title takes a little while.
I think I can say from experience that it takes longer than the time allotted for ringing in, even if you try to sing really, really fast. :roll:
I am very very (did I say very?) good at coming up with song titles from the first line (or, usually, any line), but I got that one just under the wire. I wouldn't call it easy, even by my standards.

And, even I didn't run the portion of the Doobies category that we got, missing the one that had nothing to do with the band or its songs. Easy (for me) Lach trash on China Grove.

Brian
...but the senator, while insisting he was not intoxicated, could not explain his nudity.

If I had 50 cents for every math question I got right, I'd have $6.30 by now.

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Re: Thursday, July 19, 2012 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by jpahk » Fri Jul 20, 2012 4:56 pm

Austin Powers wrote:Who knows? It would be really weird if the work Sholokov was plagiarizing used "dawn," and he was just very confused.
ha, i had forgotten about the plagiarism claim. well, i suspect that in russian, "don" and "dawn" are no more homophonic than
Spoiler
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incite and insight
are in english.

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Re: Thursday, July 19, 2012 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by seaborgium » Fri Jul 20, 2012 8:58 pm

jpahk wrote:the only reason i knew the don DD is because of mikhail sholokhov, the soviet literature nobelist whose masterwork is and quiet flows the don. the first time i heard that title i thought it was "dawn", which made no sense, but then, sometimes literature is like that.
And here I was, thinking I had never heard of the Don before. I can't remember the last time that title crossed my mind, but I've definitely heard of it. It wouldn't have helped if I'd recalled the novel, but it's a small pleasure to realize you knew something and didn't realize it.

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Re: Thursday, July 19, 2012 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by jkbrat » Fri Jul 20, 2012 9:14 pm

alietr wrote:Especially sorry that you couldn't pull Lucy out; I'm guessing you knew that one and lost it in the lights.
So, yeah - I guess a funny thing happened on the way to Final Jeopardy!

The weird thing is that I followed the same FJ! approach that had worked so well for me in my first game.
In that game, it paid off; in this one, not so much. :(

That approach was to try to precall as many facts as possible related to the category prior to actually seeing the clue.

So ... ANTHROPOLOGY. I've only got two precalls: Louis Leakey and Lucy. So far, so good, right? Then Contestant Coordinator Extraordinaire and All-Around Nice Guy Glenn stops by and tells us to write the word WHAT on our screens. I do, but as I do I think to myself "Well, so much for my precalls."

I ruled out my precalls because I believed that both of them, being people, would only be correct FJ! responses for a question whose starting word was WHO. SInce we had been given the starting word WHAT, I believed that the correct FJ! response would therefore have to be something other than a person.

Why did I believe this? I guess it was just the subconscious cumulative effect of years of watching the game and seeing how previous FJ! responses had been phrased. It seemed to me that Jeopardy! was fairly consistent about using the word WHO for people and the word WHAT for everything else (as opposed to, for example, just choosing to use the single word WHAT for everything). Since the two words were rarely, if ever, used interchangeably, I believed that they were a reliable indicator of whether the FJ! response was going to be a person or not.

Apparently, this belief was incorrect. :(

Or perhaps I should say that while this belief may have been correct for the vast majority of previous Jeopardy! games (including my own first game), it was incorrect for this game.

So, not much to say after that point. I went into the clue having spent the previous 5 minutes firmly convinced that Lucy had been ruled out by the use of the word WHAT -- whatever else I managed to come up with just wasn't going to be the correct response.

When the clue itself was finally revealed, I (apparently) absorbed it only through the filter of my preexisting bias. I focused on what I thought were the key words (Ethiopia, very old, young lady) and tried to hobble together a non-person response that could somehow tie these components together. Having no luck thinking of any things that were related to Lucy, I turned to the only other young lady that I thought had some association with ancient Ethiopia - the Queen of Sheba. Again, didn't think it could be her, of course, as she was a person. But maybe something related to her? Still no luck, so at the last minute WAGged Sheba itself because, being a geographical location, at least it satisfied (what I believed was) the constraint imposed by the word WHAT.

But as soon as I heard Alex say "skeletal remains", I knew it had to be Lucy after all. I didn't know how it could be, but I knew it had to be.

At first, I thought that the use of WHAT when referring to a person (thereby implying that they are a thing) was some kind of grammatical error on the part of the writers, but I now see that the key phrase that allows the correct response to be Lucy despite the use of the word WHAT is "named this." I must have glossed right over that phrase as just the usual filler words without realizing how incredibly powerful those two little words were: they are like a conversion factor that can change a person into a thing (Lucy is a person, but the name of Lucy is a thing; Lucy would use the word WHO, but the name of Lucy would use the word WHAT).

Perhaps if they had used this "conversion factor" more often in the past, I wouldn't have been so strongly committed to my belief that WHO -> PERSON. But in the absence of that, it was just too subtle a distinction to deter me from my chosen path within that 30-s window.

And glossing over the phrase "named this" shouldn't have been a problem at all in the context of things (the context I believed I was in): It functions as a conversion factor only for people; for things, it is completely redundant (the Magna Carta is a thing; the name of the Magna Carta is still a thing).

Even today, having had 4 months to get used to it, the phrasing WHAT IS LUCY? still strikes my Jeopardy!-tuned ear as pretty jarring.
But maybe that's just me.

And at least I'm consistent about not liking the sound of it (single clue spoiler from yesterday's game):
Spoiler
Show
I responded to the $1200 OPERA clue by saying "What is ...ah ...Beethoven-WHO IS Beethoven?"
Even in the heat of the game, no way I'm calling a person a WHAT! :lol:
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Re: Thursday, July 19, 2012 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by Budphrey » Fri Jul 20, 2012 9:21 pm

(Having just watched the past few games off the DVR after having several straight evenings tied up ...)

Congratulations on a pretty solid couple of games, Julie, and too bad about the mental speed bump. You had a couple of pretty impressive gets.

Put me in the "New Netherlands" camp. Oops. And ...

"What is 'China Grove'?"
{silence}
"'CHINA GROVE'!!? Oh, come on, people! It's right there in the lyrics!" — says the guy who lived eight miles from there for seven years.
Poo-tee-weet? So it goes.

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Re: Thursday, July 19, 2012 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by davey » Fri Jul 20, 2012 9:28 pm

Wow, jkbrat, that's heartbreaking. An example of how easy it is to fall into fruitless patterns of thinking. I do it all the time at home - how much harder to avoid in the studio. Isn't the instruction from the coordinator simply to make sure no one loses because she didn't phrase the response as a question? Too bad you placed such importance on the phrase's substance...

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Re: Thursday, July 19, 2012 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by ChemTeacher » Fri Jul 20, 2012 10:13 pm

Julie's comment about the word "who" vs. "what" in FJ makes me wonder. Do the coordinators really need to tell contestants what the question word is going to be? I suppose you could get a small hint if they tell you to write "Who are" instead of "who is," but I really don't see how knowing the actual question word gives you anything.

Obviously TPTB on J! want to avoid a FJ tragedy like this one,. But why not simply give everyone a warning before FJ like, "OK, contestants, remember your phrasing!"

In my audition, Robert said that as long as you phrase your response in the form of a question, it doesn't matter what question word you use! So "Who is Chicago?" or "What is Dennis Rodman?" were fine. I know he was speaking about regular game play as opposed to FJ, but I would still think that the actual question word (who, what, etc.) would not really matter in the end.

Of course it would be nice to use a verb in your FJ response. (Yeah, I'm talking to you, Joel Pool!) :lol:

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Re: Thursday, July 19, 2012 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by seaborgium » Fri Jul 20, 2012 10:13 pm

jkbrat, I think you should tell the J! people that you would have gotten this FJ right, had there been no pronoun prompting. It wouldn't surprise me if they said, "Sorry, but it's on you that you ruled out the correct response before the clue was ever revealed," but it might give them something to chew on, and who knows, maybe they'll decide it was misleading enough to give you another chance.

edit: that's what I get for writing so many posts on my phone. See quote below if you really care about the typo I removed!
Last edited by seaborgium on Sat Jul 21, 2012 2:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Thursday, July 19, 2012 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by teapot37 » Fri Jul 20, 2012 10:19 pm

ChemTeacher wrote:Julie's comment about the word "who" vs. "what" in FJ makes me wonder. Do the coordinators really need to tell contestants what the question word is going to be? I suppose you could get a small hint if they tell you to write "Who are" instead of "who is," but I really don't see how knowing the actual question word gives you anything.
They give you the question word but not the verb.
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Re: Thursday, July 19, 2012 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by hbomb1947 » Fri Jul 20, 2012 10:46 pm

seaborgium wrote:jkbrat, I think you should tell the J! people that you would have gotten this FJ right, had there been no pronoun prompting. It wouldn't surprise me if they said, "Sorry, but it's on you that you ruled out the correct response before the clue was ever revealed," but it might give them something to chew on, and who knows, maybe they'll decided it was misleading enough to give you another chance.
I'm sorry, and yes, Julie's account is pretty heartbreaking, but this is simply a case of a contestant who overthought things. I feel bad that it happened to her and I would have liked to see her on more episodes, but the risk of overthinking clues (including FJ's) is part of the game. There was nothing misleading about the pronoun in the context of the clue. I'm not against bringing a contestant back when circumstances warrant, but this is not remotely a situation that would justify taking an opportunity away from someone who's still waiting for a shot at the show.
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Re: Thursday, July 19, 2012 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by Paucle » Fri Jul 20, 2012 11:29 pm

Simplest solution seems to be to have the contestant coordinators strongly suggest that the who/what/when/where/why word be pre-written but not say which one, and remind the contestants, they also don't care which one. Just has to be a question.

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Re: Thursday, July 19, 2012 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by CyrusChan » Sat Jul 21, 2012 12:11 am

ChemTeacher wrote:Julie's comment about the word "who" vs. "what" in FJ makes me wonder. Do the coordinators really need to tell contestants what the question word is going to be? I suppose you could get a small hint if they tell you to write "Who are" instead of "who is," but I really don't see how knowing the actual question word gives you anything.

Obviously TPTB on J! want to avoid a FJ tragedy like this one,. But why not simply give everyone a warning before FJ like, "OK, contestants, remember your phrasing!"

In my audition, Robert said that as long as you phrase your response in the form of a question, it doesn't matter what question word you use! So "Who is Chicago?" or "What is Dennis Rodman?" were fine. I know he was speaking about regular game play as opposed to FJ, but I would still think that the actual question word (who, what, etc.) would not really matter in the end.

Of course it would be nice to use a verb in your FJ response. (Yeah, I'm talking to you, Joel Pool!) :lol:

ouch to that vid, and what was the question?

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Re: Thursday, July 19, 2012 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by jeff6286 » Sat Jul 21, 2012 12:22 am

MarkBarrett wrote:
alamble wrote:
legendneverdies wrote: WHich means J! will face possible preemptions where it airs on NBC stations due to Olympic coverage for both the last regular game(opening ceremonies on 7/27) and during the Kids' week. SUrprised J! scheduled the kids' week for that week with the possible preemptions.
The opening ceremonies are airing in prime time in all markets, so that won't be an issue.
Won't NBC's idea of prime time be more like 7:30 to midnight instead of 8-11? I get J! at 7 on my ABC affiliate, but I suspect there are some markets with J! at 7:30?
The opening ceremonies are indeed scheduled for 7:30 to midnight next Friday. My Indianapolis NBC affiliate, WTHR, has Wheel of Fortune (a repeat no less) at 7:00 followed by Olympics at 7:30, and no sign of the "regular season finale" of Jeopardy! anywhere on their schedule, not even on the digital subchannel, a near-24 hour weather channel. For the following week, NBC's primetime Olympics programming is scheduled from 8 PM to Midnight, but WTHR is showing local Olympic-based programming from 7 to 8 every day, with both Wheel and Jeopardy! airing on the digital subchannel. Apparently Friday's show must have slipped through the cracks. Hopefully that situation is rectified before Friday. Perhaps I'll write them an e-mail...

So I did a little checking on my awesome spreadsheet I compiled when I was bored that lists, for each tv market, what station airs Jeopardy!, what network it is an affiliate of, and what time it airs. It seems that many, if not all, NBC affiliates are airing Olympic Zone at 7:30 every day during the two weeks of the games, which is a show spotlighting athletes with local ties, airing before the national network coverage comes on at 8 PM. NBC affiliates that show J! at 7:30 include those in Indy, Atlanta, Detroit, San Diego, Jacksonville, and Knoxville, plus about 20 others. Atlanta and Detroit both seem to be missing J! entirely from their schedules during the Olympics, while San Diego is making the logical move of airing the new J! episodes at 7:00 instead of the repeat Wheel of Fortune shows. So I suppose I should count myself lucky that my Indianapolis station is at least showing the Kids' Week episodes on their subchannel, even though it wouldn't break my heart to miss out on Kids' Week. Next Friday's show, however, the last regular game of the season, is a different story.

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