Reretaken Down

This is where all of the games are discussed.

Moderators: alietr, dhkendall, trainman, econgator

9021amyers
Watches Jeopardy! Way Too Much
Posts: 1431
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2015 12:22 am
Location: Atlanta

Re: Reretaken Down

Post by 9021amyers » Wed Jan 23, 2019 1:17 pm

How do you fix the NFL’s overtime rules?

My personal proposal:
  • The overtime period begins with six minutes on the clock.
  • The kicking team is guaranteed a possession; a touchdown on the opening drive of overtime does not end the game.
  • In addition, the kicking team is entitled to as much time used the opening drive to score. If the opening drive takes longer than three minutes, the game clock is reset to the drive’s elapsed time at the change of possession. If the opening drive takes less than three minutes, the game clock does not reset, and the kicking team has until the clock reaches zero to score. If the receiving team does not score within six minutes, they turn the ball over, and the kicking team receives the ball on their own 25 with a fresh game clock.
  • If the two teams remain tied after one possession each, the game ends with the next score.
Why six minutes? The average time of possession on scoring drives in the NFL this season was 2:46; only the Saints and Cowboys took longer than 3:00 per scoring drive. (source: https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats ... atsoff2018) Theoretically, that’s enough time for both teams to drive down the field to score, while adding time at the change of possession mitigates any advantage the receiving team could gain from eating the clock.

User avatar
Euphonium
Loyal Jeopardista
Posts: 204
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2015 11:58 am
Location: Riverside, CA

Re: Reretaken Down

Post by Euphonium » Wed Jan 23, 2019 3:23 pm

No OT in regular season, play as many full five-minute OT periods as necessary in the postseason, with a clock that stops between every dead ball and the snap (including complete passes or tackled inbounds) but otherwise normal rules.
In any dispute between labor and management, the workers are always right.

User avatar
alietr
Site Admin
Posts: 6133
Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2011 1:20 pm
Location: Bethesda, MD

Re: Reretaken Down

Post by alietr » Wed Jan 23, 2019 3:30 pm

You could also start by having officials who aren't taking bathroom breaks in the middle of plays or are blind.

User avatar
MarkBarrett
Watches Jeopardy! Way Too Much
Posts: 8685
Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2011 10:37 am
Location: San Francisco

Re: Reretaken Down

Post by MarkBarrett » Wed Jan 23, 2019 3:31 pm

Euphonium wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 3:23 pm
No OT in regular season, play as many full five-minute OT periods as necessary in the postseason, with a clock that stops between every dead ball and the snap (including complete passes or tackled inbounds) but otherwise normal rules.
I want winners and no ties in the regular season. For an online pool I play in for picking winners and ranking each choice 1-16 in a full week it's no points for everyone when there is a tie. For a family & friends pool I run I just give everyone a point in a tie game.

If the 2018 season had no OT then does anyone want to show the final standings? Does it change any playoff teams?

For the postseason I'm fine with anything other than the old days of Team A winning the toss and kicking a long field goal to win without Team B being on offense.

User avatar
MarkBarrett
Watches Jeopardy! Way Too Much
Posts: 8685
Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2011 10:37 am
Location: San Francisco

Re: Reretaken Down

Post by MarkBarrett » Wed Jan 23, 2019 3:34 pm

alietr wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 3:30 pm
You could also start by having officials who aren't taking bathroom breaks in the middle of plays or are blind.
Lots of funny memes and editorial cartoons this week after the Saints game that are easy to find on Google. My favorites show an official doing the Bird Box challenge, Sandra Bullock dressed like a ref or the onfield crew with sunglasses, canes and seeing eye dogs.

User avatar
xxaaaxx
Watches Jeopardy! Way Too Much
Posts: 1961
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2011 9:29 pm
Location: Brooklyn, NY

Re: Reretaken Down

Post by xxaaaxx » Wed Jan 23, 2019 3:38 pm

At this point I'd like to seem them try the NCAA OT rules.

User avatar
econgator
Let's Go Mets!
Posts: 7756
Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2011 10:32 am

Re: Reretaken Down

Post by econgator » Wed Jan 23, 2019 7:56 pm

I wouldn't change a thing. It's fine as is. If you want the ball back, stop them from scoring.

User avatar
Volante
Harbinger of the Doomed Lemur
Posts: 6221
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 11:42 pm
Contact:

Re: Reretaken Down

Post by Volante » Wed Jan 23, 2019 9:06 pm

econgator wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 7:56 pm
I wouldn't change a thing. It's fine as is. If you want the ball back, stop them from scoring.
^^ And if you're that equally matched after that long...take the tie.

I'd much rather see replay changed: everything's reviewable (like Belichick wants) but you only get to review it at game speed twice (many people suggest once, but gridiron football is fast, so I figure one view to key in on the specific spot so you get the best possible look is fine).

Unrelated: Chains stay on the sidelines. Ball spotting is cutting with an axe in the first place and then you bring out the micrometer?
https://deadspin.com/the-ongoing-nfl-co ... 1786951013

User avatar
opusthepenguin
The Best Darn Penguin on the Whole JBoard
Posts: 6253
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2011 2:33 pm
Location: Shawnee, KS
Contact:

Re: Reretaken Down

Post by opusthepenguin » Wed Jan 23, 2019 9:42 pm

Yeah, the tiebreaker rules could be better. But always remember, they could be much much worse. Imagine if the game were decided by a "shootout" where each team gets 5 field goal attempts from the 20-yard line. If they're still tied at the end of round 1, repeat until the matchup ends with one team having kicked more goals. Declare that team the winner and send all the fans home feeling weird about the whole thing.

User avatar
Volante
Harbinger of the Doomed Lemur
Posts: 6221
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 11:42 pm
Contact:

Re: Reretaken Down

Post by Volante » Wed Jan 23, 2019 10:23 pm

opusthepenguin wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 9:42 pm
Yeah, the tiebreaker rules could be better. But always remember, they could be much much worse. Imagine if the game were decided by a "shootout" where each team gets 5 field goal attempts from the 20-yard line. If they're still tied at the end of round 1, repeat until the matchup ends with one team having kicked more goals. Declare that team the winner and send all the fans home feeling weird about the whole thing.
Counterpoint: watching non-kickers attempt FGs would make for a MUCH better tiebreaker! :lol:

User avatar
econgator
Let's Go Mets!
Posts: 7756
Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2011 10:32 am

Re: Reretaken Down

Post by econgator » Wed Jan 23, 2019 10:32 pm

Volante wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 9:06 pm
I'd much rather see replay changed: everything's reviewable (like Belichick wants) but you only get to review it at game speed twice (many people suggest once, but gridiron football is fast, so I figure one view to key in on the specific spot so you get the best possible look is fine).
I'd rather they did away with replay completely, but if not, then yeah, every play should be reviewed like it is in college.

User avatar
twelvefootboy
Watches Jeopardy! Way Too Much
Posts: 1055
Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2016 11:18 pm
Location: Tornado Alley / Southwest Missouri

Re: Reretaken Down

Post by twelvefootboy » Thu Jan 24, 2019 12:47 am

As a longsuffering victim of Chiefs masochism,the improved tiebreaker format just gave us a new way for the Chiefs to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. We finally are shed of Bob Sutton who made us suffer all season watching 35 point efforts get beat without calling a blitz, stunt, chipping receivers, etc.. Nobody lays a glove on Brady with his release and their game plan, so you gotta be at least as smart as Tony Romo :cry: . And it seems that Andy's upgraded his default strategy of playing to be behind with 3 minutes and needing a touchdown, conversion, onside kick recovery and field goal drive with no timeouts.

It is a bummer that the improved rule for OT still has the fundamental flaw of a coin toss bias. I think the possession ought to be guaranteed (and with a minimum of 7 minutes game time), but then the advantage switches to kicking first and seeing what you need to win/tie when you get the rock. So (for playoffs only) why not let them just keep trading scores for an hour if it happens until someone cracks? Where does anyone have to go in such a hurry? Is there an airing of "Heidi" planned?

My bigger beef is with the severity of all PI calls. Why is the default assumption that the receiver catches every damn ball that is within 10 yards? I haven't seen the angles/timing/distance of the Saints play, but I don't think that receiver was going to get to that pass that looked behind him. I'm waiting for the next-gen stats to put up the percentage for that completion, even with loose coverage.

I think the awarding of 30-50 yard penalty yardage is ridiculous. Supposedly both players have a "right" to the ball, but offensive PI only gets 10? yard penalty and the other may be 50 yards and fresh downs. There should be a penalty distance of no more than half the distance to the line of scrimmage, or a 10? yard minimum.

Yes, the Saints play was P.I.. I still am not seeing that catch made under pressure. In real time, it could easily have looked like the ball had arrived or was 10 feet away with 1/4 second to get to it. The receiver also pretty much turned his helmet into harm's way, but that is still the defenders job and should be called, maybe with the lesser penalty for being inadvertent.
Disclaimer - repeated exposure to author's musings may cause befuddlement.

MtlMike
Valued Contributor
Posts: 61
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2011 3:09 pm

Re: Reretaken Down

Post by MtlMike » Thu Jan 24, 2019 2:56 pm

Over the years, I have thought of a few OT suggestions; in the following scenarios, team A is the team that receives the OT kickoff.

(1) First score wins, BUT team A cannot attempt a FG in its first drive. So team A can only get an immediate win with a TD, but if it fails, team B only needs a FG. You might see some coin-toss winners electing to kick in this situation, as the receiving team does not have the safety net of kicking the FG.

(2) If team A scores in its first possession, team B wins if and only if it beats team A's score with one possession. So if team A gets a FG, team B must score a TD. If A gets TD+1 (conversion), team B needs TD+2. Team A cannot attempt a 2-point conversion (if it happens to get in the end zone after a botched kick it would still only get 1 point).

(3) Current rules BUT no coin toss; the home team decides whether to kick or receive. In the playoffs, home field is earned after all, why shouldn't they have a slight advantage? During the regular season, well... it adds a percentage point or two the the inherent home field advantage.

User avatar
Euphonium
Loyal Jeopardista
Posts: 204
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2015 11:58 am
Location: Riverside, CA

Re: Reretaken Down

Post by Euphonium » Thu Jan 24, 2019 3:14 pm

econgator wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 7:56 pm
I wouldn't change a thing. It's fine as is. If you want the ball back, stop them from scoring.
The issue with that is that the team with the ball first only has to do its job on offense, while the team with the ball second has to do its job on defense as well as offense. It's massively unbalanced.
In any dispute between labor and management, the workers are always right.

User avatar
AFRET CMS
Jeopardy! Champion
Posts: 773
Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2017 2:48 pm
Location: Colorado

Re: Reretaken Down

Post by AFRET CMS » Thu Jan 24, 2019 6:50 pm

twelvefootboy wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 12:47 am
[referencing pass interference]

I think the awarding of 30-50 yard penalty yardage is ridiculous. Supposedly both players have a "right" to the ball, but offensive PI only gets 10? yard penalty and the other may be 50 yards and fresh downs. There should be a penalty distance of no more than half the distance to the line of scrimmage, or a 10? yard minimum.
Brings up an interesting thought -- DPI is spot of foul. How about offensive pass interference being equal: scrimmage-to-spot-of-foul distance, but the other direction.

Or, a different penalty to treat both players equally. DPI assumes the receiver would have caught the ball and gets a spot-of-foul penalty as currently happens. Make the same assumption for the defender in the case of OPI, and award an interception.

We'll never see either of those, of course, but they make great bar discussion topics over a beer.
I'm not the defending Jeopardy! champion. But I have played one on TV.

User avatar
econgator
Let's Go Mets!
Posts: 7756
Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2011 10:32 am

Re: Reretaken Down

Post by econgator » Thu Jan 24, 2019 9:02 pm

Euphonium wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 3:14 pm
econgator wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 7:56 pm
I wouldn't change a thing. It's fine as is. If you want the ball back, stop them from scoring.
The issue with that is that the team with the ball first only has to do its job on offense, while the team with the ball second has to do its job on defense as well as offense. It's massively unbalanced.
Ummmmm, what?

Pretty sure that as soon as the second team is on offense, the first team is now on defense and balance is restored.

User avatar
earendel
Watches Jeopardy! Way Too Much
Posts: 527
Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2011 3:22 pm
Location: mired in the bureaucracy

Re: Reretaken Down

Post by earendel » Fri Jan 25, 2019 7:45 am

"Elen sila lumenn omentielvo...A star shines on the hour of our meeting."

User avatar
econgator
Let's Go Mets!
Posts: 7756
Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2011 10:32 am

Re: Reretaken Down

Post by econgator » Fri Jan 25, 2019 10:18 am

earendel wrote:
Fri Jan 25, 2019 7:45 am
How about this for a tiebreaker?
https://slate.com/culture/2019/01/calif ... ormat.html
Interesting format.

I think it's more interesting that the article calls Jay Schroeder a Super Bowl QB (I think he was in for a play or two, but really). ;)

User avatar
twelvefootboy
Watches Jeopardy! Way Too Much
Posts: 1055
Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2016 11:18 pm
Location: Tornado Alley / Southwest Missouri

Re: Reretaken Down

Post by twelvefootboy » Fri Jan 25, 2019 11:09 am

earendel wrote:
Fri Jan 25, 2019 7:45 am
How about this for a tiebreaker?
https://slate.com/culture/2019/01/calif ... ormat.html
Thanks for this. The TLDR version (for the link averse):
SpoilerShow
Here’s how it works: The ball is placed at the 50-yard line, and the teams run four plays each (a coin toss decides who gets to go first), alternating possession at the spot of the ball after every play. If no one manages to score (field goals aren’t allowed), then the team that’s in its opponents’ territory at the conclusion of the eight plays is awarded one point and declared the winner.
1) Not bad. This gives the opportunity to show most team's strengths and expose the other team's weaknesses. It still is vulnerable to being decide by an official's bad decision, but that is a given.
2) But still, "(a coin toss decides who gets to go first)". To mitigate this advantage (however small it is), I think the losing team ought to get one more play than the winner. Like a tennis tiebreaker, sort of. You gotta hold them twice. If they get 5 plays to your 4 and lose, the coin toss is equalized. It also would take the sting out of losing by inches on the 49 yard line.

The best teams won't always win. Home field is earned and so be it. You must presume referee errors are random and part of the X-factor. (I like Ben Hogan's viewpoint that if you are in position to lose because another player holed out an impossible shot, then you didn't play good enough).
But the game rules should not be skewed by a coin flip.
Last edited by twelvefootboy on Fri Jan 25, 2019 12:06 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Disclaimer - repeated exposure to author's musings may cause befuddlement.

User avatar
Euphonium
Loyal Jeopardista
Posts: 204
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2015 11:58 am
Location: Riverside, CA

Re: Reretaken Down

Post by Euphonium » Fri Jan 25, 2019 11:24 am

econgator wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 9:02 pm
Euphonium wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 3:14 pm
econgator wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 7:56 pm
I wouldn't change a thing. It's fine as is. If you want the ball back, stop them from scoring.
The issue with that is that the team with the ball first only has to do its job on offense, while the team with the ball second has to do its job on defense as well as offense. It's massively unbalanced.
Ummmmm, what?

Pretty sure that as soon as the second team is on offense, the first team is now on defense and balance is restored.
Except the second team isn't on offense if the first team scores a touchdown.
In any dispute between labor and management, the workers are always right.

Post Reply