Wednesday, March 19, 2014 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

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lieph82
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Re: Wednesday, March 19, 2014 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by lieph82 » Fri Mar 21, 2014 3:25 pm

Rex Kramer wrote:Wow, I hadn't checked this thread before today, and apparently I missed out on a lot of high-level intellectual discussion. I'm not quite sure I understood all the big words, but I think the gist of it was: If Arthur Chu were to recite the Pledge of Allegiance, he would burst into flame. Don't do it, Arthur! Not until after the ToC at least!

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Re: Wednesday, March 19, 2014 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by dhkendall » Fri Mar 21, 2014 6:13 pm

To weigh in as a Canadian on the whole pledge thing: As far as I know we don't have one. However, when I was a kid I attended a Scout-like group at my church, of course Christian themed. Every meeting we'd start with a pledge (that I still remember by heart to this day):
I pledge allegiance to the Queen, the flag, and the country for which it stands.
One nation, indivisible, with liberty, equality, and justice for all.
That's it. I highly suspect that the program we used was adapted from a program that was made in the States and since Canada doesn't (to the best of my knowledge) have an official pledge (I've never seen it in schools, heck, most classrooms don't even have a flag (except for one flying in front of course), if they do it's tacked on the wall, not on a pole in the corner), they adapted the American one. But, what's strange about that theory is that if a religious organization adapted the American pledge, you'd think they'd keep the religious part? (This was in the 80s, btw, decades after "under God" was added to yours). Anyways, I do remember finding it odd the first time I'd learned about yours to have that difference in it.
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Re: Wednesday, March 19, 2014 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by silverscreentest » Fri Mar 21, 2014 7:15 pm

I missed Harry the Dog because I ended up answering with this book. It certainly would have been a funny moment if I was actually on the show. Add to that, I have a friend named Walter who is obsessed with the subject matter of the book.
Last edited by silverscreentest on Fri Mar 21, 2014 8:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Wednesday, March 19, 2014 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by aeq5006 » Fri Mar 21, 2014 7:53 pm

Vanya wrote:Yeah, we could care less about your feelings.
In that case, I really don't care about yours. So if you don't like me using profanity, too bad.
El Jefe wrote:Are you really prepared to deny my experiences without even having heard about them?
How am I denying your experiences?
Do you really think it takes a law degree to make up your own mind about saying the pledge?
No, but I do find it absurd how the pledge's apologists say that the right to not say it has been recognized, as if that means that that fact is widely disseminated, and upheld. The courts have found that the mere existence of a constitutional right to a lawyer is not enough; people have to actually be informed of that right before their waiver of that right will be considered binding. And that's with adults. Why is it that a child who recites the pledge is considered to have voluntarily waived their right to not say it, without any affirmative duty of the school to inform them of their rights?

[quote[Without soliciting opinions can you really make assumptions or projections, convinced in your certainty?[/quote]You really like talking obliquely, don't you?
ElJefe wrote:Do you intend to persuade anyone (that indeed the pledge or clause is unfair) or do you just want to blast?
That it is unfair should be a given. If someone is not convinced of that already, they are almost certainly too bigoted to listen to reason. I've been watching the discourse on this issue, and it has become clear the pledge apologists have no coherent arguments, and the response on this board has exemplified the reliance of childish tactics such as mockery and straw men that characterizes this point of view.
How about a simple "Hey, anyone else out there take offense to that? Boy does that stupid clause get my goat."
When someone says something racist, is the response merely "Boy does that get my goat"? No. They get vilified. They get fired. They get pressured into apologizing. I'm not asking for anything more than that bigotry against atheists be treated just as seriously.
That way you won't blow a small detail up
It's not "a small detail". That's the whole point. Jeopardy! is an entertaining show, but in the grand scheme of things, it's not really all that important. Bigotry against atheists, on the other hand, is an important issue that deserves major attention.
econgator wrote:*nod* Back when I was in 6th grade (late 70's), we had two kids in our class -- 1 an atheist, 1 a Jehovah's Witness -- who did not recite the pledge. Somehow, they knew they had the right not to say it and to stand up (or sit down, in this case) for that right. No one made fun of them or beat them up or stole their lunch money.
When it comes to six-year-olds, the idea that the are saying the pledge "voluntarily" is absolutely absurd. At sixth grade, it's not quite as absurd, but still not completely valid. And the fact that not every single atheist faces retaliation doesn't mean none do. There is widespread violence, harassment and ostracism against non-Christians, and no student should have to choose between saying the pledge or announcing that they are not a Christian.

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Re: Wednesday, March 19, 2014 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by lieph82 » Fri Mar 21, 2014 8:16 pm

I'm a Jew, I never said the pledge in school, and it did not in any way affect how I was treated. Mods, can we do anything about this?

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Re: Wednesday, March 19, 2014 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by El Jefe » Fri Mar 21, 2014 8:30 pm

aeq5006 wrote:
El Jefe wrote:Are you really prepared to deny my experiences without even having heard about them?
How am I denying your experiences?
So long as you minimize/deny that US citizens routinely (and freely) decline to say the Pledge, you are denying reality and others' experiences. You should do a poll here if you're really interested in what percentage of boarders either were or attended school with Pledge refusniks. Or have you decided reality is too inconvenient for you?
aeq5006 wrote:
ElJefe wrote:Do you intend to persuade anyone (that indeed the pledge or clause is unfair) or do you just want to blast?
That it is unfair should be a given. If someone is not convinced of that already, they are almost certainly too bigoted to listen to reason.
Right, so since you've decided no one here is listening to reason, let's leave it at that. Do the poll, I'll vote and then we can find out what people think without you having to logically deal with all us bigots.
Last edited by El Jefe on Fri Mar 21, 2014 8:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Wednesday, March 19, 2014 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by Bamaman » Fri Mar 21, 2014 8:30 pm

As a Jew, why did you not say the pledge as it references God and not Christ? (Serious question).

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Re: Wednesday, March 19, 2014 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by Vanya » Fri Mar 21, 2014 8:51 pm

aeq5006 wrote: Bigotry against atheists, on the other hand, is an important issue that deserves major attention.
This would be funny if it weren't an insult to the many people who are subjected to real bigotry.

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Re: Wednesday, March 19, 2014 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by lieph82 » Fri Mar 21, 2014 8:53 pm

Church and state; I said it in Hebrew school (which I also was given a choice whether or not to attend) but not once in my 14 yrs of public school.

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Re: Wednesday, March 19, 2014 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by naurae29 » Fri Mar 21, 2014 8:55 pm

Back to Jeopardy!: What makes you so sure this particular teacher includes "under God" in the pledge when her students recite it?

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Re: Wednesday, March 19, 2014 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by Vanya » Fri Mar 21, 2014 8:59 pm

naurae29 wrote:Back to Jeopardy!: What makes you so sure this particular teacher includes "under God" in the pledge when her students recite it?
I didn't see the show; what exactly did she say?

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Re: Wednesday, March 19, 2014 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by Rex Kramer » Fri Mar 21, 2014 9:11 pm

aeq5006 wrote:There is widespread violence, harassment and ostracism against non-Christians, and no student should have to choose between saying the pledge or announcing that they are not a Christian.
It sounds like you live in a place where this is true. Many of us do not. This is perhaps why you find statements like "It's not that big a deal" outrageous, and many of us find statements like "Children are forced to hide the fact that they are atheists!" absurd. My children have known since kindergarten that they are not required to say the Pledge of Allegiance. My seventh-grade daughter is not quiet about her atheism, and she is one of the most popular kids in her school.

Yes, as you point out, the fact that some children do not face the pressures you declaim does not mean that none do. But it does explain why so many good-hearted, well-educated people on this board feel your excoriation of a reference to god, in the context of a quiz show message board, is inappropriate. In fact, it runs the risk of offending the many genuinely religious people who visit these boards, without making us atheists uncomfortable. I do not suppose you intend to display the mirror image of the bigotry you revile, but your tone does nothing to minimize the danger.

While we recognize that religious bigotry exists, we also know from personal experience that it is not so all-pervasive that mentioning god on TV is somehow the equivalent of The Spanish Inquisition (which nobody expects, anyway). If you hope to lessen such bigotry, you might find that taking steps like teaching tolerance and self-respect will have greater effect in the end than rudely denouncing the kind of white noise comment that thoughtful atheists have learned to deal with long ago.

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Re: Wednesday, March 19, 2014 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by Bamaman » Fri Mar 21, 2014 9:41 pm

aeq is doing for atheists what Fred Phelps did for Christianity.

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Re: Wednesday, March 19, 2014 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by naurae29 » Fri Mar 21, 2014 10:19 pm

Bamaman wrote:aeq is doing for atheists what Fred Phelps did for Christianity.
Well, not yet. But it appears he has his eyes on the prize.

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Re: Wednesday, March 19, 2014 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by silverscreentest » Sat Mar 22, 2014 2:14 pm

Vanya wrote:
naurae29 wrote:Back to Jeopardy!: What makes you so sure this particular teacher includes "under God" in the pledge when her students recite it?
I didn't see the show; what exactly did she say?
All she said was that she produces a 4-minute long, daily television program where the talent consists entirely of elementary school students. And the pledge of allegiance is regular part of it. Can you say "troll"?
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Re: Wednesday, March 19, 2014 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by Golf » Sat Mar 22, 2014 4:15 pm

To get this thread away from the current idiocy and back on track...

The last three categories of the first round were blatant copies of the last three categories from this game. http://www.j-archive.com/showgame.php?game_id=3459

It's gonna be, wait for it, legendary vs. legend, wait for it, ary. To make matters worse, two of the five clues in wait for it were virtually identical.

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Re: Wednesday, March 19, 2014 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by Woof » Sat Mar 22, 2014 9:46 pm

opusthepenguin wrote:
Woof wrote:This is getting weird... for the second time this week I ran the J board.
I don't think so, buddy. Alietr run JBoard.
Hey, you ever see us in the same room together, Opus? Hmmmm? :lol:

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Re: Wednesday, March 19, 2014 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by Bamaman » Sat Mar 22, 2014 10:29 pm

Golf wrote:To get this thread away from the current idiocy and back on track...

The last three categories of the first round were blatant copies of the last three categories from this game. http://www.j-archive.com/showgame.php?game_id=3459

It's gonna be, wait for it, legendary vs. legend, wait for it, ary. To make matters worse, two of the five clues in wait for it were virtually identical.
While not a repeat, the bottom clue in Legends was close to a clue in Waiting in the one you linked.

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Re: Wednesday, March 19, 2014 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by aeq5006 » Tue Mar 25, 2014 6:58 pm

lieph82 wrote:I'm a Jew, I never said the pledge in school, and it did not in any way affect how I was treated. Mods, can we do anything about this?
You're asking the mods to censor views you don't like?
El Jefe wrote:So long as you minimize/deny that US citizens routinely (and freely) decline to say the Pledge, you are denying reality and others' experiences.
You are going to absurd lengths to try to twist my statements into something they plainly are not. If you freely refused to say the pledge, then your experience is that you freely refused to say the pledge. You, personally, did not experience US citizens routinely freely refusing to say the pledge; that is not your experience, that is your generalization from your experience. The idea that I cannot assert that anyone experienced anything different from what you experienced without "denying your experiences" is just rhetorical nonsense. The overwhelming majority of Americans are coerced into some sort of participation in the pledge.
aeq5006 wrote:Right, so since you've decided no one here is listening to reason, let's leave it at that.
If you wish to disagree, name one person who has presented a reasoned, logical, rational, honest and respectful argument for why the pledge is not bigotry. Or present one yourself. The very first response to my post consisted of: presenting the view that this should not be discussed, and attacking a straw man.
Vanya wrote:This would be funny if it weren't an insult to the many people who are subjected to real bigotry.
Anyone who is insulted by me bringing attention to bigotry against atheists deserves to be insulted. You are the one being insulting, by denying blatant bigotry against atheists.
Vanya wrote:I didn't see the show; what exactly did she say?
She said that every day, she tells her students that Christianity is entitled to special privileges and that belief in God in an essential part of American patriotism.
Rex Kramer wrote:It sounds like you live in a place where this is true. Many of us do not.
You seem to not understand the concept of "true". True statement are true. They aren't true some places, and not true other places.

This is a common catch-22 for atheists: if they live in a place without this sort of bigotry, then people say "Well, it's no big deal". And if they live in a place with this bigotry, then they don't want to come forward.
This is perhaps why you find statements like "It's not that big a deal" outrageous, and many of us find statements like "Children are forced to hide the fact that they are atheists!" absurd.
You find the statement "Children are forced to hide the fact that they are atheists!" absurd because you live someplace where that doesn't happen? Anything that doesn't happen in your presence doesn't exist?
Yes, as you point out, the fact that some children do not face the pressures you declaim does not mean that none do. But it does explain why so many good-hearted, well-educated people on this board feel your excoriation of a reference to god, in the context of a quiz show message board, is inappropriate.
First of all, I have pointed out REPEATEDLY that this is not about a mere "reference" to god. It's not "I pledge allegiance to one nation indivisible, and by the way, some people believe in God". It's "I pledge allegiance to one nation under God". The pledge of allegiance is an endorsement of theocracy. How does this not deserve excoriation?
In fact, it runs the risk of offending the many genuinely religious people who visit these boards, without making us atheists uncomfortable.
Oh noes! Some religious bigots may be offended by my pointing out their bigotry!
I do not suppose you intend to display the mirror image of the bigotry you revile, but your tone does nothing to minimize the danger.
There is nothing bigoted about anything I've said, and you're just repeating pro-bigotry talking points by pretending that attacking bigotry is somehow just as bigoted as bigotry itself.
While we recognize that religious bigotry exists, we also know from personal experience that it is not so all-pervasive that mentioning god on TV is somehow the equivalent of The Spanish Inquisition (which nobody expects, anyway).
I never said that it was the equivalent of The Spanish Inquisition. I said that it was the equivalent of "F*** you, atheists!"
If you hope to lessen such bigotry, you might find that taking steps like teaching tolerance and self-respect will have greater effect in the end than rudely denouncing the kind of white noise comment that thoughtful atheists have learned to deal with long ago.
The fact that atheists have "learned to deal" with such bigotry, and have become so desensitized to it for it to become "white noise" is the whole point. It shouldn't be just accepted. Atheists shouldn't just say "Well, that's just the way it is." And pointing out people's bigotry is not "rude".
Bamaman wrote:aeq is doing for atheists what Fred Phelps did for Christianity.
The fact that you are equating me asking for equality with Phelps demanding inequality, shows what an awful person you are. You have such a sense of entitlement that you view anyone saying that you should not have special rights to be oppressing you.

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Re: Wednesday, March 19, 2014 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by lieph82 » Tue Mar 25, 2014 7:07 pm

aeq5006 wrote:You seem to not understand the concept of "true". True statement are true. They aren't true some places, and not true other places.
Can we debate this instead?

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