Friday, November 25, 2016 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

[Bamaman]

A small DD bet does increase his win potential in this game. But a big DD bet increases his chances of winning the game, thus giving him a chance to win more games and more money. A win Monday would most likely have gotten him into the TOC.

[AndyTheQuizzer]

A small DD bet does increase his win potential in this game. But a big DD bet increases his chances of winning the game, thus giving him a chance to win more games and more money. A win Monday would most likely have gotten him into the TOC.

And I still think the $ difference in this game is substantial enough to be worth it, especially considering absolutely nothing has been said about a ToC as of yet. That leads me to think that a "small 4" might be on the outside looking in, making it all the more important to win more money now.

[opusthepenguin]

Well, yes, Cabaret does have Nazis, but I highly recommend it. Even in the world of musicals, it's not nearly as dark you may think.

Sounds like the world of musicals is darker than I understood.

[Elijah Baley]

Well, yes, Cabaret does have Nazis, but I highly recommend it. Even in the world of musicals, it's not nearly as dark you may think.

Sounds like the world of musicals is darker than I understood.

As it's always been. Show Boat was one of the first of the modern era and dealt with racism, gambling addiction and infidelity. And that was in 1927!

Heck, even Gilbert & Sullivan had a little bite beneath the frivolity.

[IronNeck]

I remember reading on Keith's site that when a player is crushed (needs to get FJ correct and his/her opponent to get it wrong in order to win), their win expectancy, averaged out over all such situations in the archives, is 15%. That's very close to my own estimate of 16% using dependent variables (0.4*0.4).

Don't know what the win expectancy is with $19,700 versus $20,300 with 3rd at $6,200, but given the ability of second place to win games with both players getting it right or wrong (which we've seen many times on the show under these circumstances), and the effectiveness of the $7,499 bet, I would guess at the very least 35%.

For those unaware of the whopping difference in win percentages.

[jwatcher16]

Maven wrote: (forgive me, but I somehow messed up the quoting...):
I actually don't disagree about Cabaret not being the 'best musical'...of the Tony nominated musicals in 1967, I really, REALLY wish The Apple Tree had won instead of Cabaret. TAT has been quite underrated since its original run, and was/is considerably more fun than Cabaret (at least IMO anyway).

The Apple Tree? Wow, I'm not familiar with that one... will have to look that one up for sure!

I almost did see Cabaret, though. When I was still teaching, one of my students was going to play the emcee in some local production, but for some reason I wasn't able to attend.

[jwatcher16]

Well, yes, Cabaret does have Nazis, but I highly recommend it. Even in the world of musicals, it's not nearly as dark you may think.

Sounds like the world of musicals is darker than I understood.

As it's always been. Show Boat was one of the first of the modern era and dealt with racism, gambling addiction and infidelity. And that was in 1927!

Heck, even Gilbert & Sullivan had a little bite beneath the frivolity.

Hi there Elijah Bailey - and Opus----

Well, I'll just take as you say that Cabaret isn't quite as dark as one might think. And yes, there are musicals that have dark sides. Show Boat is a good example I guess - there was a performance with Vanessa Williams on tv not too long ago, which I started watching. It got to the point that the one character was singing about something bad coming - or something like that - and I just changed channels. Thinking of it - Oklahoma has a character die, so does Brigadoon - guess that's why in spite of some things I like about them, I've kept them "at some distance." And My Fair Lady and Carousel are pretty sexist, so I really don't care for them.

It begs the question should musicals deal with these serious topics? For me the answer is sort of a duality: a)why should they not? There should be artistic freedom in whatever medium; but b) that doesn't mean I might want to watch it, though. I guess it's that I see so much bad news all around (and yes, I follow it, sometimes as though I'm following a train wreck), that it's nice to get a break. But that's just me, I guess.

[silverscreentest]

This discussion of dark musicals sent me down a rabbit hole to find these.

Saturday's repeat had this $800 clue Broadway Clue in the Jeopardy round about this musical.

I also found this dark Tony nominee for Best Musical.

[Elijah Baley]

Well, yes, Cabaret does have Nazis, but I highly recommend it. Even in the world of musicals, it's not nearly as dark you may think.

Sounds like the world of musicals is darker than I understood.

As it's always been. Show Boat was one of the first of the modern era and dealt with racism, gambling addiction and infidelity. And that was in 1927!

Heck, even Gilbert & Sullivan had a little bite beneath the frivolity.

Hi there Elijah Bailey - and Opus----

Well, I'll just take as you say that Cabaret isn't quite as dark as one might think. And yes, there are musicals that have dark sides. Show Boat is a good example I guess - there was a performance with Vanessa Williams on tv not too long ago, which I started watching. It got to the point that the one character was singing about something bad coming - or something like that - and I just changed channels. Thinking of it - Oklahoma has a character die, so does Brigadoon - guess that's why in spite of some things I like about them, I've kept them "at some distance." And My Fair Lady and Carousel are pretty sexist, so I really don't care for them.

It begs the question should musicals deal with these serious topics? For me the answer is sort of a duality: a)why should they not? There should be artistic freedom in whatever medium; but b) that doesn't mean I might want to watch it, though. I guess it's that I see so much bad news all around (and yes, I follow it, sometimes as though I'm following a train wreck), that it's nice to get a break. But that's just me, I guess.

I just find it interesting that Broadway/musicals/Oscar winners comes up so often as categories here (as silverscreentest illustrates above), and yet so often the response here from folks very well rounded in many other fields is "I never heard [or saw] that famous play/musical/performance!" If one wants to get up to speed in a subject, I can't think of an easier set of categories since some judicious watching of classic movies (like on Turner Classic Movies) would give anyone a pretty decent education.

As for darker subject material, the stage version of Cabaret is suitable for the kitty in your avatar (although there's a touch of sexuality in the stage version that a bit more oblique in the movie). Violence is more suggested than shown and only briefly. Cabaret is really more two personal stories that happen to be set in pre-war Berlin, although the stage version addresses the background stories as much as the two leads.

I'm all for light entertainment as well - it would be boring to see the same stuff over and over - and something like Cabaret is really about as easy an entree into non-fluff as anything out there.

[andrew]

To be honest, I wasn't feeling great about the category, which partly led to that bad bet. When the clue came up all I saw was "migrant workers" and immediately thought Grapes of Wrath without paying attention to the rest of the clue. Maybe if the poem was called "To a Mouse and a Man" it would have helped...

And on that second DD, somehow my brain went to Mary Queen of Scots, who I knew had a French king for a husband (though the clue said Spanish husband). So I guessed that Henry III was maybe around that time. Multiple brain farts.

I didn't know about that win expectancy difference you mention - obviously it makes complete sense. Clearly I should've been on this board earlier! Blargh.

It's tough out there

Of course, Andrew then returned the favor with his first timid, awful DD wager in the DJ round. If I were to crunch the numbers, it likely reduced his winning chances, versus an all-in bet, by 10% or more. And on a category he displayed strong knowledge in, too. (Hindsight bias aside)

His second DD wager was equally bad, if not worse. Looking through the topic, there are some arguing it was okay.

There is a big difference in terms of win expectancy between being crushed by 1st place and being down a tiny amount to 1st place while simultaneously locking out 3rd, in the event he got it correct.

[Volante]

I just find it interesting that Broadway/musicals/Oscar winners comes up so often as categories here (as silverscreentest illustrates above), and yet so often the response here from folks very well rounded in many other fields is "I never heard [or saw] that famous play/musical/performance!" If one wants to get up to speed in a subject, I can't think of an easier set of categories since some judicious watching of classic movies (like on Turner Classic Movies) would give anyone a pretty decent education.

As one of these bizarre repeat offenders, there's just too damn many to keep up with. Only the past few days did I finally see District 9, Pretty in Pink and Sixteen Candles.

FWIW, Cabaret is now #27 (effective #23) on my Netflix disc queue (4 titles before it are short/long wait which always means long wait )
Sure, I could make the list top heavy with J! material, but then I'd miss out on others like Dogville (two weeks ago)

[Linear Gnome]

I would have thought that a discussion of dark musicals would have gotten to Sweeney Todd by now. Two more are Assassins and American Psycho.

FJ! wasn't an instaget, but I did get it about halfway through (and the correct response wouldn't take very long to write!).

[jwatcher16]

This discussion of dark musicals sent me down a rabbit hole to find these.

AND

I would have thought that a discussion of dark musicals would have gotten to Sweeney Todd by now. Two more are Assassins and American Psycho.

Thanks, silverscreentest, for those clues - this is getting interesting.

Linear Gnome - yes, I hadn't even thought about those... But it made me remember Miss Saigon - that had to be pretty dark as it was based on Madame Butterfly. And what about Little Shop of Horrors?

Where's Harold HIll when you need him?

[jwatcher16]

I just find it interesting that Broadway/musicals/Oscar winners comes up so often as categories here (as silverscreentest illustrates above), and yet so often the response here from folks very well rounded in many other fields is "I never heard [or saw] that famous play/musical/performance!"

Hi Elijah -

That's an interesting point. You mentioned Turner Classic Movies. Unfortunately for me it's on the next tier up on Fios and my bill is already enough.

I might also add folks should support local community theaters - not only will they learn about the play or musical, but also boost a great community resource. And even if one's not into Netflix or streaming - one can check libraries - I think many have videos to lend.

And I might reconsider Cabaret. After a very interesting rabbit hole trip into dark musicals, and your additional take, it just might be ok. I almost DID see a performance once as I noted to Maven. So I will keep my eyes open for some opportunity.

[BigDaddyMatty]

That Of Mice and Men DD ticks me off. By mentioning that the title came from the poem "To A Mouse," it's so obvious as to be negbait. OMAM was my first guess, but I figured that there was no way they would have a $1600 DD clue that was nearly a candidate for Stupid Answers.

Did you end up saying something else? I agree it seems oddly obvious, but I couldn't imagine what else to say. Grapes of Wrath? That's from the Bible via Julia Ward Howe. East of Eden? Directly from the Bible. Tortilla Flat? Cannery Row? Going out on a limb and ruling both those out. The Pearl? Also a Bible ref. The Red Pony? Maybe Burns wrote that animal into a poem about a mouse? Nah.

I ended up going with East of Eden. I understood that title as a Biblical allusion, but thought that, like "the grapes of wrath," it could have been put in precisely those words by a poet. It wasn't smart, but I just couldn't believe that they would make the clue such a gimme. I would expect that sort of phrasing from a Kids' Week/Celebrity J! DD.

[Volante]

If there's one thing I've learned from this thread, it's more people need to watch Eddie Izzard standup.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FEdTPOHf0jI

[Rafferty Barnes]

Hi Andrew, welcome to the Board and congratulations on your wins! I was just sitting at home and I still couldn't pull out Of Mice and Men, though I knew that fact quite well at one point. Ah the mind, she goes.

To be honest, I wasn't feeling great about the category, which partly led to that bad bet. When the clue came up all I saw was "migrant workers" and immediately thought Grapes of Wrath without paying attention to the rest of the clue. Maybe if the poem was called "To a Mouse and a Man" it would have helped...

And on that second DD, somehow my brain went to Mary Queen of Scots, who I knew had a French king for a husband (though the clue said Spanish husband). So I guessed that Henry III was maybe around that time. Multiple brain farts.

I didn't know about that win expectancy difference you mention - obviously it makes complete sense. Clearly I should've been on this board earlier! Blargh.

It's tough out there

[IronNeck]

I just find it interesting that Broadway/musicals/Oscar winners comes up so often as categories here (as silverscreentest illustrates above), and yet so often the response here from folks very well rounded in many other fields is "I never heard [or saw] that famous play/musical/performance!" If one wants to get up to speed in a subject, I can't think of an easier set of categories since some judicious watching of classic movies (like on Turner Classic Movies) would give anyone a pretty decent education.

True, but this applies to most Jeopardy categories. In fact, watching classic movies is far more time-consuming in that regard than reading a (far smaller number) of classic books, or learning basic history, or knowing major geographical topics, etc.

To be honest, I wasn't feeling great about the category, which partly led to that bad bet. When the clue came up all I saw was "migrant workers" and immediately thought Grapes of Wrath without paying attention to the rest of the clue. Maybe if the poem was called "To a Mouse and a Man" it would have helped...

And on that second DD, somehow my brain went to Mary Queen of Scots, who I knew had a French king for a husband (though the clue said Spanish husband). So I guessed that Henry III was maybe around that time. Multiple brain farts.

I didn't know about that win expectancy difference you mention - obviously it makes complete sense. Clearly I should've been on this board earlier! Blargh.

It's tough out there

On a conciliatory note, since you got both DDs wrong, betting optimally on either (or both) wouldn't have changed the end result of the game. So there's nothing to regret with regards to the wagering.

Appreciate the insight into your thinking for the two DDs. With this being your third game was fatigue beginning to become a factor?

[Lore]

Does anyone else see a resemblance between Justin and Ed Nygma (aka Riddler) from Gotham?

[opusthepenguin]

Does anyone else see a resemblance between Justin and Ed Nygma (aka Riddler) from Gotham?

Hadn't thought of it, but yeah. My first thought, though, when I saw him, was Edward Snowden.