Should the Teen Tournament Winner Get a TOC Invite?

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Should the winner of the Teen Tournament be invited to participate in the Tournament of Champions?

Yes
30
42%
No
42
58%
 
Total votes: 72

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alietr
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Should the Teen Tournament Winner Get a TOC Invite?

Post by alietr » Mon Nov 12, 2018 8:28 am

Might as well take a poll on it.

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Re: Should the Teen Tournament Winner Get a TOC Invite?

Post by boson » Mon Nov 12, 2018 10:25 am

In most cases the teen tournament winner will be blown out of the water at the TOC... but not always. I've seen teen high school quizbowlers who could definitely be competitive and some who could win the whole thing. We've seen the same with college and teacher tournament winners - most are weaker than a regular 4x winner at the TOC, but on occasion we get a star.

I like the fairness of it. If J! thinks these teens are good enough to devote 2 weeks of their season to their tournament, then 1/15th of the TOC field could be a teen. I like mixing up the field and adding some unpredictability. I say do it.

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Re: Should the Teen Tournament Winner Get a TOC Invite?

Post by twelvefootboy » Mon Nov 12, 2018 10:55 am

I have flip flopped on this - I think the teen player would get slaughtered without special teen-friendly categories. But, maybe their gaming skills would win the buzzer battles for the softball clues? I voted nay, just to spare the embarrassment - although for $10K I'm sure they'd eat slugs on TV.

For entertainment purposes, it might make a better game with a natural underdog to root for. But what do we if a boardie (RobW) plays against an adorable teenager? But, I think the 15th best TOC qualifier would probably bury the best teen in regular adult categories. And, the same player has a shot at the podium if the categories break right.

edit - I hadn't read the informative threads about the pre-history that have resurfaced when I voted. The flip flop is now a flip - come back when you grow up girl...
Last edited by twelvefootboy on Mon Nov 12, 2018 11:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Should the Teen Tournament Winner Get a TOC Invite?

Post by StevenH » Mon Nov 12, 2018 10:58 am

Sorry, but I have to vote no. In general the teen tournament winners just were not competitive enough to warrant invites to the ToC over a 3x or 4x winner from the regular episodes. Yes, there were some exceptions, like Eric Newhouse, Matt Zielenski, and Amanda Goad, but aside from maybe Newhouse even they didn't have realistic chances of actually winning their ToCs. Plus you have to be 18 anyway to appear on the adult show, so it makes sense to keep the adults and teens separate (even if the teen tournament winner could be 18 by the time the ToC taping arrives).

And to be honest, I don't think that the college tournament winner should be invited either. They have done better than the teens I think, but as a whole they have still underwhelmed in the ToCs. Someone pointed out awhile back that the college tournament winners have statistically done better in ToCs than the last qualifier from the regular games, but I still feel like there have been too many alternates who I would have liked to have seen play be left out.

I just think that the ToC should be for the best winners from the adult games (and Teachers Tournament, if it must be a thing).

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Re: Should the Teen Tournament Winner Get a TOC Invite?

Post by threearruda » Mon Nov 12, 2018 11:05 am

I've read The Final Wager's analysis on the issue a few times and come to the same conclusion each time..

I agree that if the show puts up two weeks of teens, surely they can dedicate one spot to them in the ToC field. I especially believe this considering the current ToC cycle, as the field remains about half full of auto-qualifiers after a year of play. Too many AQ's? The show either needs to run ToCs closer together (thereby getting only two or three) or more players need to win five games. As far as I'm concerned, what is the point in even having the tournament if we're deliberately excluding the winner from having the chance to return for the big dance? Everyone else who steps on stage has that opportunity.

Yes, most of the time a teen may get blown out, and likely there are stats to back this up. Yet, the teens had a similar success rate advancing in the ToC when compared to teachers and collegians. There are a few recent teen players in my eyes who would have been tough outs in ToC play; notably Elyse Mancuso ('12), and, had he won, Michael Borecki ('16). Don't forget that Michael Braun ('05) nearly won his UToC game a few weeks after winning his teen tourney.
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Re: Should the Teen Tournament Winner Get a TOC Invite?

Post by JayK33 » Mon Nov 12, 2018 11:17 am

StevenH wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 10:58 am
And to be honest, I don't think that the college tournament winner should be invited either. They have done better than the teens I think, but as a whole they have still underwhelmed in the ToCs. Someone pointed out awhile back that the college tournament winners have statistically done better in ToCs than the last qualifier from the regular games, but I still feel like there have been too many alternates who I would have liked to have seen play be left out.
Let's not forget that Tom Cubbage, who happened to be the first ever College Champ, won his ToC that year, too. Cliff Galiher finished third in his, and Jeff Stewart finished second to Rachael Schwartz (losing by just $1, I think?).

As for the Teens being included, I'd say sure, give them the shot. We can't know how they'd perform if we don't. We do have the Teacher Tournament now which adds another spot, but the Seniors Tournament winners were also included back when that tournament existed. That was three spots for Tournament winners given away then, so it wouldn't be too wild to have it be the case again.

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Re: Should the Teen Tournament Winner Get a TOC Invite?

Post by MarkBarrett » Mon Nov 12, 2018 11:31 am

My vote is yes as I enjoyed the teen champ's presence in previous TOCs whether they made it to the second week or went out early. The Teachers Tournament & College Championship winners get it, so include the Teen Tournament winner as well. If the field fills up quickly with a bunch of 5 and above regular play champs then hold the TOC earlier which most of us would like.

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Re: Should the Teen Tournament Winner Get a TOC Invite?

Post by seaborgium » Mon Nov 12, 2018 12:15 pm

In a similar discussion on the board years ago, I came up with the idea of putting them on the list of ToC qualifiers, but ranking them rather than giving them an automatic bid (to put it more precisely, counting them as a 3x or 4x champion with $75,000—the grand prize at the time—although counting them in the rankings behind all 4x champs and ahead of all 3x champs would work fine too). On a theoretical level I like it, but I know it would bother me that some TT champs make it in and some don't based purely on the accident of what year they happened to play. And this doesn't address whom to invite if two TTs happen during the qualifying period and there are exactly fourteen other players ahead of the champs.

It would be nice to have TT champs back in the ToC, but I don't want too many automatic bids taking spaces away from regular game champions, and we've already got up to four as it is.

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Re: Should the Teen Tournament Winner Get a TOC Invite?

Post by alietr » Mon Nov 12, 2018 12:32 pm

twelvefootboy wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 10:55 am
although for $10K I'm sure they'd eat slugs on TV.
Not such a good idea ... A young rugby player ate a slug on a ‘mate’s’ dare. Now he’s dead.

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Re: Should the Teen Tournament Winner Get a TOC Invite?

Post by pinkfreud » Mon Nov 12, 2018 12:36 pm

I assume that the winner of the Teen Tournament is ineligible to compete again in regular play (at least as long as Alex is host). Given this unfortunate circumstance, I think it's only fair that she or he should be given a shot at the TOC. I've seen some teen players who could hold their own against adult champions. Let 'em try.

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Re: Should the Teen Tournament Winner Get a TOC Invite?

Post by LucarioSnooperVixey » Mon Nov 12, 2018 1:32 pm

The Teen Tournament winner used to be invited long ago. However, some material in the ToC is pretty difficult. The teens are also up against people who are much older than them. They have also appeared in more games than the Teen Tournament winner. In the olden days, I don't think there has ever been a Teen Tournament winner who has made it to the finals.

On second hand, if a person is in the ToC before they go to college, it would make a good college resume. ;)
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Re: Should the Teen Tournament Winner Get a TOC Invite?

Post by GoodStrategy » Mon Nov 12, 2018 1:39 pm

My suggestion that I made on The Final Wager when this was a subject there is invite the Teen Tournament winners, but not until the first ToC taped after turning 18. (I voted "yes" in the poll since my compromise wasn't an option.)

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Re: Should the Teen Tournament Winner Get a TOC Invite?

Post by triviawayne » Mon Nov 12, 2018 4:03 pm

I voted no because I believe more often than not, they would be slaughtered due to the TOC level and age of material.

It's not that I wouldn't want to see them try, and there would surely be a few that could pull off the upset, such as Eric Newhouse, but since those cases would be rare, I think that's a bit of an unfair advantage to the 12 players in the tournament that don't play against the teen player. At least with the college player and Teacher's tournament winners, they are of age and obviously ready for the TOC material as they would qualify for a regular season game.

and just to stir the pot...

should we put in the kids week and celebrity week top scorers as well?
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Re: Should the Teen Tournament Winner Get a TOC Invite?

Post by triviawayne » Mon Nov 12, 2018 4:04 pm

GoodStrategy wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 1:39 pm
My suggestion that I made on The Final Wager when this was a subject there is invite the Teen Tournament winners, but not until the first ToC taped after turning 18. (I voted "yes" in the poll since my compromise wasn't an option.)
what if there are three of them at the same time?

OK, first thing to sort out is would three be possible
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Re: Should the Teen Tournament Winner Get a TOC Invite?

Post by Volante » Mon Nov 12, 2018 9:32 pm

triviawayne wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 4:04 pm
GoodStrategy wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 1:39 pm
My suggestion that I made on The Final Wager when this was a subject there is invite the Teen Tournament winners, but not until the first ToC taped after turning 18. (I voted "yes" in the poll since my compromise wasn't an option.)
what if there are three of them at the same time?

OK, first thing to sort out is would three be possible
Yes. Very quick example: september sophomore one year, september junior next year, september senior following year.

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Re: Should the Teen Tournament Winner Get a TOC Invite?

Post by JayK33 » Mon Nov 12, 2018 11:07 pm

An idea I had in one of the daily show threads, is that maybe in the future they can organize a Teen Tournament of Champions or something, in which 15 recent Teen Champs would be invited back to compete. I get that it may still give the older winners (like Papa Chakravarthy, for example) an advantage over the fresh ones (like whoever will win this year), but it might be fun to try once.

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Re: Should the Teen Tournament Winner Get a TOC Invite?

Post by Magna » Tue Nov 13, 2018 12:23 pm

I don't have strong feelings about it. If they put the teen champ into the TOC it wouldn't affect whether I watch it. But because the teen tournament has different types of clues, I'm not sure how well they'd do.

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Re: Should the Teen Tournament Winner Get a TOC Invite?

Post by RobW » Tue Nov 13, 2018 4:57 pm

twelvefootboy wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 10:55 am
For entertainment purposes, it might make a better game with a natural underdog to root for. But what do we if a boardie (RobW) plays against an adorable teenager?
Oh you cheer for the underdog, no question!

(I submitted a yes for this poll, but I'd say the same even without my vested interest... let 'em have a shot!)
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Re: Should the Teen Tournament Winner Get a TOC Invite?

Post by twelvefootboy » Tue Nov 13, 2018 9:34 pm

RobW wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 4:57 pm
twelvefootboy wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 10:55 am
For entertainment purposes, it might make a better game with a natural underdog to root for. But what do we if a boardie (RobW) plays against an adorable teenager?
Oh you cheer for the underdog, no question!

(I submitted a yes for this poll, but I'd say the same even without my vested interest... let 'em have a shot!)
As usual, a classy response from you. :)

As I've picked up more counterpoints from the board here, I don't see a way to reconcile the timing issue unless you are willing to have 2 teenagers when the TOC is 2 years apart. There is a point of view I haven't seen - in some ways, the teen champion has beaten 14 competitors, whereas a 5 day champ only faces 10 of them. It's a stretch analogy for sure. Another insight is that the teen wouldn't really bump anyone, it would just close the cycle sooner so you wouldn't have to wait such an interminable length of time as an early qualifier. You must be suffering from preparation fatigue by now.

I won't change my original (negative) vote, but now I'm all in - bring in the celebs and the pets and their children!
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Re: Should the Teen Tournament Winner Get a TOC Invite?

Post by Lefty » Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:43 am

I voted yes. At any rate, I think it's a better use of a spot than the Teachers' Tourney champ (who also have got used to dumbed down material). As some have here noted, the winners are sometimes pretty good. The rest can study.
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