Tuesday, May 23, 2023 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

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Re: Tuesday, May 23, 2023 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by Robert K S »

ACW wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 12:17 pm Also, Shakespeare spelling his name differently is something I did not know.
Pretty chestnutty trivia: six extant signatures, all different:

Willm Shakp
William Shakspēr
Wm Shakspē
William Shakspere
Willm Shakspere
By me William Shakspeare

None of them have an "E" after the "K" as we put today.

While we're at it, "second-best bed" is Pavlovian for Shakespeare's will. (5 Archive hits 1998-2022.)
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Re: Tuesday, May 23, 2023 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by brick »

Robert K S wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 11:28 am
brick wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 11:07 am Someone on Reddit mentioned.
I can't find the video to check, but I wouldn't put a lot of weight on the accuracy of the archived version of that 1996 ToC game. For example, it renders Renoir's and Park's given names unhyphenated. The title of A Midsummer Night's Dream is given as "A Midsummer Nights' Dream". This is a Robert McIelwain entry and it's possible he put it in from an audiorecording.

I notice now that Andy already made the same point over there 13 hours ago.

I like these two refutations of Ben's own forfeiture here:
Agenbit
I mean Shakespeare himself barely ever spelled his own name the same way twice. He would have ruled it correct. I am sure. I disagree with your own ruling against yourself. Could you imagine? Time traveling William Shakespeare goes on Jeopardy, an answer is"Who is William Shakespeare", but he spells his name "Shackspear" that time and it's ruled incorrect?

Lycanthrowrug
English Ph.D. here. I thought it was an unfair ruling or at least a questionable one, especially since they have often made the point on Final Jeopardy that they don't rule against people for misspelling. Ben clearly had the right characters while the others missed them entirely. I don't think I've ever seen a ruling on Final Jeopardy that irked me more. 'Benedick' is simply an early Modern English form of 'Benedict."
I appreciate you clarifying that the point I raised was arguably moot. I appreciate you even more for bringing significantly solider supports for my ire about this clue and this ruling. I really think they owe Ben (another!) return… but I’m not sure he wants it.
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Re: Tuesday, May 23, 2023 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by brick »

ACW wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 12:17 pm Ah, Revelation not being capitalized threw me.

Also, Shakespeare spelling his name differently is something I did not know.
I apologize that my lazy typing contributed to confusion.
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Re: Tuesday, May 23, 2023 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by Anachronism »

In the past, the assumption was if whatever the contestant writes down, if sounded out, seems right, a misspelling is considered OK. Generally that's vowel differences. We see spelling errors all the time related to consonants that are doubled, or a C starting a word instead of a K.

It's never had to be exact.

The question, for me, is whether if a person answered "Benedict" to a "regular" question, would that be counted wrong. The sounds are so close that I think they wouldn't do that.

Written out forces a more stringent test. And since Benedict is a much more modern name than Benedick, it's just a bad question. You also have the hazier "fairness" visual (which shouldn't override anything, but it's a bad look) of a very strong champion losing because he was in first place, bet to cover, and was the only one who got the play right, but lost on not properly knowing the archaic spelling.

So, count me in the group that thinks the rules edict denying Ben's apparent victory wasn't cool (call it the Ben edick).
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Re: Tuesday, May 23, 2023 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by da Doctah »

Robert K S wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 12:20 pm
ACW wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 12:17 pm Also, Shakespeare spelling his name differently is something I did not know.
Pretty chestnutty trivia: six extant signatures, all different:

Willm Shakp
William Shakspēr
Wm Shakspē
William Shakspere
Willm Shakspere
By me William Shakspeare

None of them have an "E" after the "K" as we put today.
More interesting to me in connection with Will's name: the 43rd word in the 43rd Psalm is "shake" and the 43rd word from the end (disregarding the reverential "selah" that wraps up the chapter) is "spear". This is using the KJV, which was being translated when Shakespeare was 43 years of age.

(Edit: I don't necessarily think he took part in the actual translation. More likely he had an admirer who worked on the project.)
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Re: Tuesday, May 23, 2023 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by davey »

brick wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 11:07 am
davey wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 8:06 am
ACW wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 7:44 am
DavidRosen wrote: Tue May 23, 2023 7:34 pm
opusthepenguin wrote: Tue May 23, 2023 6:42 pm Well THAT was a dirty trick.
I didn't really think so - the name is Benedick, not Benedict, and these are famous characters from a famous play. Kinda saw it coming, just surprised it came from Ben. I wonder - were they warned that they had to be precise about the spelling?

Was it a mis-spelling, or did he mis-remember the name?
I mean, it was correctly ruled wrong, but it doesn't sit well with me. The heck kinda name is "Benedick" anyway?
brick wrote: Tue May 23, 2023 9:48 pm What an utterly terrible final clue. It’s a crappy set up for this exact kind of gotcha moment, and the distinction between the two spellings isn’t meaningful in the way that the distinction between revelation and revelations is. Ugh.
Isn't the latter just a plural form of the former?
What kind? The clue said. Latin.
The poster is referring to the fact that J! doesn't accept revelations when the Bible book of Revelation is called for...I think mistaking a character's name is more fundamental than making a plural out of a singular. The latter is a common slip, but I reject the idea that the name of the hero of one of Shakespeare's most popular plays for 400 years is obscure... :roll:
They even made a movie of it...with Denzel Washington and Keanu Reeves!
The difference between a single Revelation and multiple Revelations has extraordinary implications theologically. That, not an obsession with plurals, is the reason they are so precise on that count, IMO. It dramatically changes the nature of the thing being referred to.

The Benedict/ Benedick error is less substantive, AND when you take into account that the earliest extant written versions of the plays were published years after Shakespeare died, it feels pointless to hinge the whole thing on a small detail like this, that arguably may not be absolutely correct.

I don’t think anyone is saying that it’s obscure at all. I certainly am not. This very small distinction betwixt those two names is a little obscure… but not the play or the names of the characters.

I think there’s even a clue in the archive where the name was rendered Benedict. Someone on Reddit mentioned.
Much Ado About Nothing's earliest known edition is from 1600, 16 years before Shakespeare's death. If anyone cares to show that the name was spelled different ways in early editions, especially with a t, I would take that seriously.
J! doesn't care about the implications of Christian theology except to exploit it for clues. Revelations is wrong because it's not the name of the "book."
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Re: Tuesday, May 23, 2023 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by davey »

Anachronism wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 1:40 pm In the past, the assumption was if whatever the contestant writes down, if sounded out, seems right, a misspelling is considered OK. Generally that's vowel differences. We see spelling errors all the time related to consonants that are doubled, or a C starting a word instead of a K.

It's never had to be exact.

The question, for me, is whether if a person answered "Benedict" to a "regular" question, would that be counted wrong. The sounds are so close that I think they wouldn't do that.

Written out forces a more stringent test. And since Benedict is a much more modern name than Benedick, it's just a bad question. You also have the hazier "fairness" visual (which shouldn't override anything, but it's a bad look) of a very strong champion losing because he was in first place, bet to cover, and was the only one who got the play right, but lost on not properly knowing the archaic spelling.
...a "regular" question...
The rule is pretty clear, reinforced by the FJ ruling last night - if someone clearly articulates the t, they're wrong. It's more likely that someone wanting to say Benedict would get away with not voicing the t...
So I should feel sorry for Ben, a college professor, because he relied on bum trivia books for his knowledge of one of Shakespeare's major plays?
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Re: Tuesday, May 23, 2023 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by AFRET CMS »

twelvefootboy wrote: Tue May 23, 2023 10:22 pm
opusthepenguin wrote: Tue May 23, 2023 6:42 pm Well THAT was a dirty trick.
1) Lynn (fixed misspelling, twelvefootgirl's name is Lyn, lol) said "trephanation" according to my CC and my ears. I would think a neuroscientist would have picked up on that, and I expected a reversal.
I was also expecting a reversal and looked it up when none was forthcoming. Turns out "trephination" is an acceptable alternative. Another TIL for me.

I would have to pick Opus's second option -- IF I had thought of the correct answer, I might well have forgotten Shakespeare's spelling and matched Ben, though I would have slapped my forehead after.

Reminds me a bit of a high school English teacher who counted Anthony and Cleopatra as an incorrect answer because of the extra "H".
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Re: Tuesday, May 23, 2023 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by davey »

AFRET CMS wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 3:45 pm
Reminds me a bit of a high school English teacher who counted Anthony and Cleopatra as an incorrect answer because of the extra "H".
Aha! This is a much better counterexample than anyone has offered yet. Alas for the English teacher, the Fourth Folio renders it Anthony...
I haven't looked at every page of the First Folio, but the final k in Benedick is quite prominent in the instances I've seen. You want a variant spelling? The play is called Much Adoe about Nothing.
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Re: Tuesday, May 23, 2023 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by John Boy »

opusthepenguin wrote: Tue May 23, 2023 6:42 pm Well THAT was a dirty trick.
Ditto.

I can still barely imagine they negged the guy for that! Just awful.
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Re: Tuesday, May 23, 2023 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by Game Girl »

DavidRosen wrote: Tue May 23, 2023 7:34 pm
opusthepenguin wrote: Tue May 23, 2023 6:42 pm Well THAT was a dirty trick.
I didn't really think so - the name is Benedick, not Benedict, and these are famous characters from a famous play. Kinda saw it coming, just surprised it came from Ben. I wonder - were they warned that they had to be precise about the spelling?

Was it a mis-spelling, or did he mis-remember the name?
to answer the question above he used phonetics which is acceptable in most cases for jeopardy (unless spelling is part of the clue).
One of the productions uses this pronounce it this way. though I do not think the host followed the phonetics correctly. it was from PBS using Shakespeare on the park which is a respected production. this is definitely a correct pronunciation of this name and hopefully they go back to this with sensitivity. because this is not just almost, this is completely correct and more of a tomato tomato issue.
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Re: Tuesday, May 23, 2023 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by Anachronism »

davey wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 3:33 pm
Anachronism wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 1:40 pm In the past, the assumption was if whatever the contestant writes down, if sounded out, seems right, a misspelling is considered OK. Generally that's vowel differences. We see spelling errors all the time related to consonants that are doubled, or a C starting a word instead of a K.

It's never had to be exact.

The question, for me, is whether if a person answered "Benedict" to a "regular" question, would that be counted wrong. The sounds are so close that I think they wouldn't do that.

Written out forces a more stringent test. And since Benedict is a much more modern name than Benedick, it's just a bad question. You also have the hazier "fairness" visual (which shouldn't override anything, but it's a bad look) of a very strong champion losing because he was in first place, bet to cover, and was the only one who got the play right, but lost on not properly knowing the archaic spelling.
...a "regular" question...
The rule is pretty clear, reinforced by the FJ ruling last night - if someone clearly articulates the t, they're wrong. It's more likely that someone wanting to say Benedict would get away with not voicing the t...
So I should feel sorry for Ben, a college professor, because he relied on bum trivia books for his knowledge of one of Shakespeare's major plays?
There's often considerable leeway in pronunciations with verbal answers, though there was the recent Solzhenitsyn festival of equivalency. What is clearly articulating a ct rather than a k? Some people would put more emphasis on the t than others, but there's no way in the world Mayim (or Ken) would then say, "not quite sure you have that right, could you spell that out for me?"

That's why the rule (and it isn't 100% clear to me, not having the rulebook, so if you have a copy and are allowed to post it, that would help) seems to give considerable leeway on vowels with respect to spelling because they're fundamentally similar. Even when the sound is very different and even with names. Same with double-consonants.

Let's go back to Solzhenitsyn. He's been in dozens of clues. And twice, according to the archive, in FJ - once requiring his major novel and not his name and once, back in 1990, his name. The winner (with a 2nd-position bet that would make us all proud) wrote "Solzhenitzin" and Alex made a point of saying spelling doesn't count in FJ. However, I think (and I've checked a few places), the last syllable should be "sin" and not "zin", making this a remarkably similar case to yesterday's show.

(editing to add, this was a college championship semifinal, and if David had been ruled incorrect, he still would have won, so this wouldn't have been controversial at the time)

I'd add that Russian complicates this. But so, apparently, does Shakepeare-era English translated to modern English. Lots of words change in spelling and sometimes even in pronunciation.

Yeah, the more I look at this, the more I don't like the ruling.
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Re: Tuesday, May 23, 2023 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by brick »

davey wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 3:04 pm
brick wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 11:07 am
davey wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 8:06 am
ACW wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 7:44 am
DavidRosen wrote: Tue May 23, 2023 7:34 pm

I didn't really think so - the name is Benedick, not Benedict, and these are famous characters from a famous play. Kinda saw it coming, just surprised it came from Ben. I wonder - were they warned that they had to be precise about the spelling?

Was it a mis-spelling, or did he mis-remember the name?
I mean, it was correctly ruled wrong, but it doesn't sit well with me. The heck kinda name is "Benedick" anyway?
brick wrote: Tue May 23, 2023 9:48 pm What an utterly terrible final clue. It’s a crappy set up for this exact kind of gotcha moment, and the distinction between the two spellings isn’t meaningful in the way that the distinction between revelation and revelations is. Ugh.
Isn't the latter just a plural form of the former?
What kind? The clue said. Latin.
The poster is referring to the fact that J! doesn't accept revelations when the Bible book of Revelation is called for...I think mistaking a character's name is more fundamental than making a plural out of a singular. The latter is a common slip, but I reject the idea that the name of the hero of one of Shakespeare's most popular plays for 400 years is obscure... :roll:
They even made a movie of it...with Denzel Washington and Keanu Reeves!
The difference between a single Revelation and multiple Revelations has extraordinary implications theologically. That, not an obsession with plurals, is the reason they are so precise on that count, IMO. It dramatically changes the nature of the thing being referred to.

The Benedict/ Benedick error is less substantive, AND when you take into account that the earliest extant written versions of the plays were published years after Shakespeare died, it feels pointless to hinge the whole thing on a small detail like this, that arguably may not be absolutely correct.

I don’t think anyone is saying that it’s obscure at all. I certainly am not. This very small distinction betwixt those two names is a little obscure… but not the play or the names of the characters.

I think there’s even a clue in the archive where the name was rendered Benedict. Someone on Reddit mentioned.
Much Ado About Nothing's earliest known edition is from 1600, 16 years before Shakespeare's death. If anyone cares to show that the name was spelled different ways in early editions, especially with a t, I would take that seriously.
J! doesn't care about the implications of Christian theology except to exploit it for clues. Revelations is wrong because it's not the name of the "book."
Have a lovely day.
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Re: Tuesday, May 23, 2023 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by seaborgium »

Anachronism wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 5:11 pm Let's go back to Solzhenitsyn. He's been in dozens of clues. And twice, according to the archive, in FJ - once requiring his major novel and not his name and once, back in 1990, his name. The winner (with a 2nd-position bet that would make us all proud) wrote "Solzhenitzin" and Alex made a point of saying spelling doesn't count in FJ. However, I think (and I've checked a few places), the last syllable should be "sin" and not "zin", making this a remarkably similar case to yesterday's show.
The last syllable isn't "sin" or "zin," it's "tsin" (the "ts" is a single Cyrillic letter) which is indistinguishable from "tzin."
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Re: Tuesday, May 23, 2023 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by floridagator »

Anachronism wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 5:11 pm

There's often considerable leeway in pronunciations with verbal answers, though there was the recent
You mean oral answers. Verbal means in words.
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Re: Tuesday, May 23, 2023 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by jamie »

floridagator wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 5:29 pm
Anachronism wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 5:11 pm

There's often considerable leeway in pronunciations with verbal answers, though there was the recent
You mean oral answers. Verbal means in words.
A non-verbal response for this FJ! would be problematic.
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Re: Tuesday, May 23, 2023 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by davey »

Anachronism wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 5:11 pm

There's often considerable leeway in pronunciations with verbal answers, though there was the recent Solzhenitsyn festival of equivalency. What is clearly articulating a ct rather than a k? Some people would put more emphasis on the t than others, but there's no way in the world Mayim (or Ken) would then say, "not quite sure you have that right, could you spell that out for me?"

That's why the rule (and it isn't 100% clear to me, not having the rulebook, so if you have a copy and are allowed to post it, that would help) seems to give considerable leeway on vowels with respect to spelling because they're fundamentally similar. Even when the sound is very different and even with names. Same with double-consonants.

Let's go back to Solzhenitsyn. He's been in dozens of clues. And twice, according to the archive, in FJ - once requiring his major novel and not his name and once, back in 1990, his name. The winner (with a 2nd-position bet that would make us all proud) wrote "Solzhenitzin" and Alex made a point of saying spelling doesn't count in FJ. However, I think (and I've checked a few places), the last syllable should be "sin" and not "zin", making this a remarkably similar case to yesterday's show.
What is clearly articulating a ct rather than a k? Making 2 specific sounds. That's why I said one might be able to elide the t in pronouncing Benedict.
English speakers don't pronounce c's or k's like t's. Every English speaker sometimes pronounces an s like a z. These have nothing to do with each other.
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Re: Tuesday, May 23, 2023 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by Anachronism »

seaborgium wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 5:23 pm
Anachronism wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 5:11 pm Let's go back to Solzhenitsyn. He's been in dozens of clues. And twice, according to the archive, in FJ - once requiring his major novel and not his name and once, back in 1990, his name. The winner (with a 2nd-position bet that would make us all proud) wrote "Solzhenitzin" and Alex made a point of saying spelling doesn't count in FJ. However, I think (and I've checked a few places), the last syllable should be "sin" and not "zin", making this a remarkably similar case to yesterday's show.
The last syllable isn't "sin" or "zin," it's "tsin" (the "ts" is a single Cyrillic letter) which is indistinguishable from "tzin."
This is an interesting rabbit-hole, I guess. I haven't comprehensively checked everything that can be checked. So far, everything has come up "sin" for the last syllable with respect to his name. I see the Tse character in Cyrillic, but the suggested pronunciations for that character are more tsin than tzin. So when translating the word I usually would write "czar", should the equivalent tsar be pronounced the same or like tsunami? I am not a Russian speaker by any means. The Russian spelling starts with the same ts character.

Yes, my use of verbal is incorrect above. I apologize.

The question is what do you do to create a trivia show that's entertaining to trivia buffs without becoming too pedantic for television. What rules and rulings work best? Since there's leeway on pronunciation and leeway on spelling, what's too much leeway?
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Re: Tuesday, May 23, 2023 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by opusthepenguin »

Lot of interesting thoughts. In case there's no box in the poll, I'll note that I do think the ruling was correct. I would not be in favor of having Ben invited back. Part of the reason for that, I suppose, is that, as dirty as this trick was, it would be an even dirtier trick to make some poor returning champ face Ben rather than a second newcomer. Even the 8-time champ who faced him this way got mowed down. But that's just an aggravating factor. I would not be in favor of bringing back a poor chump who lost their only game due to this technicality. I'd just be steamed on their behalf.

But when all the venting is done, the character's name is Benedick and there are apparently no variants in the Shakespearean canon. The arguments about Shakespeare's own variable spelling and the closeness of the two names do not change this fact. They just confirm my feeling that this was a dirty trick.
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Re: Tuesday, May 23, 2023 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by brick »

davey wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 5:48 pm
Anachronism wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 5:11 pm

There's often considerable leeway in pronunciations with verbal answers, though there was the recent Solzhenitsyn festival of equivalency. What is clearly articulating a ct rather than a k? Some people would put more emphasis on the t than others, but there's no way in the world Mayim (or Ken) would then say, "not quite sure you have that right, could you spell that out for me?"

That's why the rule (and it isn't 100% clear to me, not having the rulebook, so if you have a copy and are allowed to post it, that would help) seems to give considerable leeway on vowels with respect to spelling because they're fundamentally similar. Even when the sound is very different and even with names. Same with double-consonants.

Let's go back to Solzhenitsyn. He's been in dozens of clues. And twice, according to the archive, in FJ - once requiring his major novel and not his name and once, back in 1990, his name. The winner (with a 2nd-position bet that would make us all proud) wrote "Solzhenitzin" and Alex made a point of saying spelling doesn't count in FJ. However, I think (and I've checked a few places), the last syllable should be "sin" and not "zin", making this a remarkably similar case to yesterday's show.
What is clearly articulating a ct rather than a k? Making 2 specific sounds. That's why I said one might be able to elide the t in pronouncing Benedict.
English speakers don't pronounce c's or k's like t's. Every English speaker sometimes pronounces an s like a z. These have nothing to do with each other.
A really deep and interesting rabbit hole is pronunciation in Shakespeare's time. There's a terrific set of lectures from the RSC back in the 80's.. I wonder if I can find them. The thing I remember the most was a the dogs of war sounding about like "tha daaags uf whaahr" .. basically in some ways a lot closer to the kinds of vocal production we hear in Scotland and the Blackpool... not the refined, careful enunciation we usually hear used for the plays now.
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