Wednesday, November 16, 2022 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

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Re: Wednesday, November 16, 2022 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by davey »

Robert K S wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 8:50 am
davey wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 8:11 am I thought the point was it's not ascribed to Paul and it's not an epistle...?
Did I miss something? I didn't think there was any controversy that it was an epistle (work in the form of a letter)?

Edit: I see I missed this:
earendel wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 6:46 am in form and language it's not an epistle. It doesn't follow the traditional epistolary form (identification of writer, salutation, destination, etc.). It reads more like a sermon or lecture.
Wikipedia, while titling its article as "Epistle", notes similarly: "Hebrews does not fit the form of a traditional Hellenistic epistle, lacking a proper prescript. Modern scholars generally believe this book was originally a sermon or homily, although possibly modified after it was delivered to include the travel plans, greetings and closing."
Yes. That article also uses "epistle" 62 times.
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Re: Wednesday, November 16, 2022 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by alietr »

I know people online have been screaming for some sort of re-do, and it's been a very long time, but I'm pretty sure the legal paperwork you sign says that the rulings of the judges are final and you have no recourse.
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Re: Wednesday, November 16, 2022 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by Coelacanth »

Imagine my astonishment when the murder mystery that was my bedtime reading included the passage
They were like the Hebrews to whom Paul wrote...
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Re: Wednesday, November 16, 2022 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by bluejaylink »

The Bible isn't a strong area for me.

Is the fact that Jeopardy always uses the King James version relevant in this case? Does it attribute it to Paul?
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Re: Wednesday, November 16, 2022 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by Xu Donym »

bluejaylink wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 11:15 am The Bible isn't a strong area for me.

Is the fact that Jeopardy always uses the King James version relevant in this case? Does it attribute it to Paul?
Leaving Paul's authorship aside, there are others who agree with Sam's response:

https://www.knowableword.com/2013/04/17 ... -passages/

Per the list above, there's the question of how to define a "quotation" -- you get a different list if a NT quotation must actually be in the OT's Hebrew, or if the quotation must be a literal rendering in Greek (as per quotations from the Septuagint), or if a paraphrase counts, or if a thematic reference qualifies as a quotation. The assertion of Hebrews' quotation count isn't pinned in a definitive manner to distinguish the writers' count from others'.

On the "Paul" front, I can find KJV translations that use the antiquated "The Epistle of Paul the Apostle to the Hebrews" title, and others that omit Paul from the titling. The title of the book is not the book's content, nor is it considered inspired canon as is the content of the book. If I find a book titled "George Washington's..." but historians know it wasn't written by him, must I abide by the fiction of the book's authorship? I don't think so, even apart from the well-attested historical/literary fact that pseudipigrapha routinely used the name of a famous figure whose authority they sought to claim.

It's a badly worded clue, even if we take one particular English-language translation as the standard. But it's no better or worse than so many clues that the show uses; this is just a high-profile example of an increasingly common Jeopardy! phenomenon. I (and others) need to learn to relax and accept that a "factual error" on Jeopardy! isn't of any greater significance than The Price Is Right telling me that a $1.89 item is in fact priced at $1.79. Jeopardy! is a profit-making game show, and I trust the producers have weighed the cost of higher-quality fact-checking vs. any increased viewership it might bring.
Last edited by Xu Donym on Thu Nov 17, 2022 1:29 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Wednesday, November 16, 2022 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by Austin Powers »

alietr wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 11:12 am I know people online have been screaming for some sort of re-do, and it's been a very long time, but I'm pretty sure the legal paperwork you sign says that the rulings of the judges are final and you have no recourse.
Sure, but clearly they’ve let people back on before due to flawed questions
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Re: Wednesday, November 16, 2022 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by Robert K S »

The "no recourse" is intended to rule out courts becoming arbiters of the correctness of show material, not to rule out remedies granted by the grace of TPTB.
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Re: Wednesday, November 16, 2022 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by Shaquebanisa »

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Re: Wednesday, November 16, 2022 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by opusthepenguin »

Are. You. Freaking. Kidding. Me?!?!!!?!! Unbelievable. This is why I would never Clavin on a Bible-related FJ. There's too high a risk that the writers got it wrong. Mr. Davies, would you please keep me on retainer and run these clues by me in the future?

Literally my first thought on seeing the clue was, huh, I would have thought it was Hebrews, but that's not by Paul. Maybe they're ruling out Hebrews because it's not an epistle? Yeah, that makes sense. As others have noted Hebrews is not in the form of an epistle or letter. It lacks the salutation (as well as the shout-outs and administrative housekeeping at the end) and just starts up with its subject matter. It is, by it's self-description, a "word of exhortation". I.e. it's a sermon or a homily. It also never says it's from Paul which all of Paul's epistles do. For this reason as well as linguistic analysis, the majority of the Christian church worldwide does not attribute Hebrews to Paul. The Eastern Orthodox churches are a major exception. The Roman Catholic churches and Protestant churches do not. The original KJV, a protestant creation, did call it the Epistle of Paul to the Hebrews (or something similar). But the attribution was never considered to be part of the text.

Furthermore, as others have noted, it is not clear that Hebrews has more OT quotations than Romans. It depends on where something stops being a quotation and starts being an allusion, I think.

So Amy and Andrew both wrote a response that cannot possibly be correct. Sam wrote the only possibly correct response available. Un-frickin-believable.
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Re: Wednesday, November 16, 2022 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by Xu Donym »

opusthepenguin wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 8:29 pm Are. You. Freaking. Kidding. Me?!?!!!?!! Unbelievable.
So what's the endgame for the tournament if Jeopardy! wants to keep pretending to be a test of knowledge rather than a test of getting inside the clue-writers' minds? Award the same grand-prize money to all three finalists, framing it as a gesture acknowledging the excellence of all? Or double-down by sharing with viewers a plausible explanation of how that clue was in fact properly pinned to the desired response? The latter would be remarkable, I think, if they could pull it off. The former would be a tremendous gesture of goodwill.

But if all they do is crown a champion and do nothing to repair the damage their sloppy clue-writing has done -- perhaps reasoning that Sam wouldn't have won the tournament even if credited with the Wednesday win, so it just doesn't matter -- I think they'll be acknowledging powerfully that Jeopardy! isn't the show it used to be, and that we should relax and enjoy it in much the same way as we might enjoy Deal or No Deal.
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Re: Wednesday, November 16, 2022 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by Volante »

Xu Donym wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 9:07 pm
opusthepenguin wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 8:29 pm Are. You. Freaking. Kidding. Me?!?!!!?!! Unbelievable.
So what's the endgame for the tournament if Jeopardy! wants to keep pretending to be a test of knowledge rather than a test of getting inside the clue-writers' minds? Award the same grand-prize money to all three finalists, framing it as a gesture acknowledging the excellence of all? Or double-down by sharing with viewers a plausible explanation of how that clue was in fact properly pinned to the desired response? The latter would be remarkable, I think, if they could pull it off. The former would be a tremendous gesture of goodwill.

But if all they do is crown a champion and do nothing to repair the damage their sloppy clue-writing has done -- perhaps reasoning that Sam wouldn't have won the tournament even if credited with the Wednesday win, so it just doesn't matter -- I think they'll be acknowledging powerfully that Jeopardy! isn't the show it used to be, and that we should relax and enjoy it in much the same way as we might enjoy Deal or No Deal.
Conspiracy theory time! They left it in because it doesn't change the results of the tourney. *goes back into tin foil yurt to hide*
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Re: Wednesday, November 16, 2022 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by Golf »

Xu Donym wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 9:07 pm So what's the endgame for the tournament if Jeopardy! wants to keep pretending to be a test of knowledge rather than a test of getting inside the clue-writers' minds?
Quite frankly, it's always been a little bit of both. Jeopardy is very easy to study for because we have almost 40 years of data on what kinds of information comes up more frequently than it theoretically should. That's why we have Pavlovs. To properly prepare for the show, you don't try to learn everything, you systematically scratch the surface of certain subjects that the clue-writers favor.

Ken Jennings is not the smartest person around, just the best Jeopardy player.

That being said, I am not defending this clue in any way.
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Re: Wednesday, November 16, 2022 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by opusthepenguin »

Volante wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 9:30 pm
Xu Donym wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 9:07 pm
opusthepenguin wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 8:29 pm Are. You. Freaking. Kidding. Me?!?!!!?!! Unbelievable.
So what's the endgame for the tournament if Jeopardy! wants to keep pretending to be a test of knowledge rather than a test of getting inside the clue-writers' minds? Award the same grand-prize money to all three finalists, framing it as a gesture acknowledging the excellence of all? Or double-down by sharing with viewers a plausible explanation of how that clue was in fact properly pinned to the desired response? The latter would be remarkable, I think, if they could pull it off. The former would be a tremendous gesture of goodwill.

But if all they do is crown a champion and do nothing to repair the damage their sloppy clue-writing has done -- perhaps reasoning that Sam wouldn't have won the tournament even if credited with the Wednesday win, so it just doesn't matter -- I think they'll be acknowledging powerfully that Jeopardy! isn't the show it used to be, and that we should relax and enjoy it in much the same way as we might enjoy Deal or No Deal.
Conspiracy theory time! They left it in because it doesn't change the results of the tourney. *goes back into tin foil yurt to hide*
If Sam came back to win it all, that would be the cleanest result. (NOTE: Please remember everyone. This is the WEDNESDAY thread. Don't even think of HINTING at what happened in Thursday's game and how that might affect this thought. Certain penguins, who have not seen Thursday's game yet, will be extremely unhappy and will find ways to make you unhappy too.) Second cleanest would be Amy winning the whole thing, but then we'd still have to contend with the possibility that this incorrect ruling seriously demoralized poor Sam and affected his play in the following games.

Is this the worst screw-up they've ever had?
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Re: Wednesday, November 16, 2022 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by Ironhorse »

opusthepenguin wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 8:29 pm
Is this the worst screw-up they've ever had?
The magnitude of this one is probably the greatest, but I remember the FJ several years ago where the screen in studio mistakenly displayed "his" instead of "this", resulting in the leading player crossing out the correct answer and writing "Carl Sagan". He would have won over $30K, but instead had to settle for being invited back, and losing that game.
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Re: Wednesday, November 16, 2022 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by Volante »

opusthepenguin wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 9:50 pm
Volante wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 9:30 pm
Xu Donym wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 9:07 pm
opusthepenguin wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 8:29 pm Are. You. Freaking. Kidding. Me?!?!!!?!! Unbelievable.
So what's the endgame for the tournament if Jeopardy! wants to keep pretending to be a test of knowledge rather than a test of getting inside the clue-writers' minds? Award the same grand-prize money to all three finalists, framing it as a gesture acknowledging the excellence of all? Or double-down by sharing with viewers a plausible explanation of how that clue was in fact properly pinned to the desired response? The latter would be remarkable, I think, if they could pull it off. The former would be a tremendous gesture of goodwill.

But if all they do is crown a champion and do nothing to repair the damage their sloppy clue-writing has done -- perhaps reasoning that Sam wouldn't have won the tournament even if credited with the Wednesday win, so it just doesn't matter -- I think they'll be acknowledging powerfully that Jeopardy! isn't the show it used to be, and that we should relax and enjoy it in much the same way as we might enjoy Deal or No Deal.
Conspiracy theory time! They left it in because it doesn't change the results of the tourney. *goes back into tin foil yurt to hide*
If Sam came back to win it all, that would be the cleanest result. (NOTE: Please remember everyone. This is the WEDNESDAY thread. Don't even think of HINTING at what happened in Thursday's game and how that might affect this thought. Certain penguins, who have not seen Thursday's game yet, will be extremely unhappy and will find ways to make you unhappy too.) Second cleanest would be Amy winning the whole thing, but then we'd still have to contend with the possibility that this incorrect ruling seriously demoralized poor Sam and affected his play in the following games.

Is this the worst screw-up they've ever had?
Problem is I'm pretty sure the final day is going to have a massive number of posts so even showing up that day is going to end up a spoiler...
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Re: Wednesday, November 16, 2022 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by bkellysky »

opusthepenguin wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 8:29 pm Are. You. Freaking. Kidding. Me?!?!!!?!! Unbelievable. This is why I would never Clavin on a Bible-related FJ. There's too high a risk that the writers got it wrong. Mr. Davies, would you please keep me on retainer and run these clues by me in the future?

Literally my first thought on seeing the clue was, huh, I would have thought it was Hebrews, but that's not by Paul. Maybe they're ruling out Hebrews because it's not an epistle? Yeah, that makes sense. As others have noted Hebrews is not in the form of an epistle or letter. It lacks the salutation (as well as the shout-outs and administrative housekeeping at the end) and just starts up with its subject matter. It is, by it's self-description, a "word of exhortation". I.e. it's a sermon or a homily. It also never says it's from Paul which all of Paul's epistles do. For this reason as well as linguistic analysis, the majority of the Christian church worldwide does not attribute Hebrews to Paul. The Eastern Orthodox churches are a major exception. The Roman Catholic churches and Protestant churches do not. The original KJV, a protestant creation, did call it the Epistle of Paul to the Hebrews (or something similar). But the attribution was never considered to be part of the text.

Furthermore, as others have noted, it is not clear that Hebrews has more OT quotations than Romans. It depends on where something stops being a quotation and starts being an allusion, I think.

So Amy and Andrew both wrote a response that cannot possibly be correct. Sam wrote the only possibly correct response available. Un-frickin-believable.
Yes. (Also see my previous post.)
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Re: Wednesday, November 16, 2022 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by goongas »

Xu Donym wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 9:07 pm
opusthepenguin wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 8:29 pm Are. You. Freaking. Kidding. Me?!?!!!?!! Unbelievable.
So what's the endgame for the tournament if Jeopardy! wants to keep pretending to be a test of knowledge rather than a test of getting inside the clue-writers' minds? Award the same grand-prize money to all three finalists, framing it as a gesture acknowledging the excellence of all? Or double-down by sharing with viewers a plausible explanation of how that clue was in fact properly pinned to the desired response? The latter would be remarkable, I think, if they could pull it off. The former would be a tremendous gesture of goodwill.

But if all they do is crown a champion and do nothing to repair the damage their sloppy clue-writing has done -- perhaps reasoning that Sam wouldn't have won the tournament even if credited with the Wednesday win, so it just doesn't matter -- I think they'll be acknowledging powerfully that Jeopardy! isn't the show it used to be, and that we should relax and enjoy it in much the same way as we might enjoy Deal or No Deal.
In a perfect world, they would each get $250,000, but that is not what is going to happen. If they did something like that, no one will get FJ or a DD right for the rest of the season because they will want to save their budget.

I am guessing they are going to have Ken tape an explanation that will air during the next regular show or at the end of the final ToC game on what they decided to do. Likely it will be if Sam did not have two wins, he wasn't close enough for us to do anything. Maybe they would invite Sam to play regular J!?

The second chance tournament FJ about the trees was a minor black eye, but not as bad as this...Do they need to hire more writers/researchers? Are they distracted by having to write for the celebrity show as well?
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Re: Wednesday, November 16, 2022 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by opusthepenguin »

goongas wrote: Fri Nov 18, 2022 12:01 am The second chance tournament FJ about the trees was a minor black eye, but not as bad as this...Do they need to hire more writers/researchers? Are they distracted by having to write for the celebrity show as well?
Remind me of the trees thing? Yeah, maybe they've taken too much on.
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Re: Wednesday, November 16, 2022 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by opusthepenguin »

Ironhorse wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 9:52 pm
opusthepenguin wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 8:29 pm
Is this the worst screw-up they've ever had?
The magnitude of this one is probably the greatest, but I remember the FJ several years ago where the screen in studio mistakenly displayed "his" instead of "this", resulting in the leading player crossing out the correct answer and writing "Carl Sagan". He would have won over $30K, but instead had to settle for being invited back, and losing that game.
Ooof. Yeah that one's pretty bad:

https://j-archive.com/showgame.php?game ... ardy_round

They aired the game with the corrected clue, so we had no idea. That's understandable, but I thought they were only supposed to make edits that didn't affect the outcome of the game. When Alex read the clue, he put a lot of weight on the word "This", saying it distinctly and pausing slightly before moving to the next word. I wonder if that was his original reading or if they had a redo afterwards. The next word is "slang" so maybe it was just natural to pause to make sure the terminal s of this didn't elide into the initial s of slang.
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Re: Wednesday, November 16, 2022 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by Xu Donym »

goongas wrote: Fri Nov 18, 2022 12:01 am Do they need to hire more writers/researchers?
It seems that the Jeopardy! clue-vetting process is flawed. Good researchers will learn to evaluate their sources, and to look for contrary evidence when the sources are of a sort that suggests such evidence may exist. The problem seems to be quality, not quantity, of research.

I expect that, somewhere in the J! writers' room today, there's a well-meaning individual who is trying to counter the public outcry by reminding the boss, "But my source said..." Unfortunately, finding a source is not enough to ensure a good clue. We can hope that this is a helpful lesson in the difference between "doing research" and merely "looking stuff up."

For example, there are two big problems with the FJ! clue. One, of course, is the unnecessary assertion of Pauline authorship of Hebrews. But the fundamental mistake was to ask about "quotations" without defining the term or pinning it to a counter or a method of counting. There are credible counters out there (see earlier posts) who long before this clue had done their own counting and had -- like Sam -- found Romans to be the most OT-quoting NT book. So, if your clue must elicit "Hebrews" as the desired response, some pinning of your counter or your counting method is needed. All of which should be obvious to a researcher, but not necessarily to someone who merely knows how to look things up.

You don't need "more writers" to fix the problem. You need "more careful writers."
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